[PhilNYC]

Hantra...don't hold back.  How do you *really* feel?

 

[nathanm]

The point is that high price can create a kind of artificial credibility in a person's mind regardless of the known facts.  And Hantra demonstrates that the inverse is also true, that if something doesn't LOOK right, like XO gubbins, then it might not sound good either???

If that piece was intended as smack talk Brian would have to do a lot better than that!  It starts off by saying he KNEW the guy after all.  Read it again man, at worst it is an incredulous comment on Wilson's overpriced philosophy.  But it's really just a neutral statement of facts without any harsh judgement.  All it says is that the two companies have different approaches to selling speakers.  If he was 'talking smack' he'd say Wilson IS an evil opportunist who just wants to steal rich folks' money.  I did not get that impression.  

So anyway, back to that swank wood room...lively in there or what?

[Hantra]

So anyway, back to that swank wood room...lively in there or what?

All I want to know is HOW do they calculate the dimensions, angles of deflection, etc to build something like that into a room.  It HAS to sound live, and probably pretty dog gone good!

Post them pics man!!!!

[Andrikos]

Does it matter that what Brian says is true and factual?
He's not really passing judgement on Wilson.
I believe what he says and it actually makes sense.
Wilson is not out to make afforadable speakers.
They're making speakers for the elite and they'll continue to do so as long as the "elite" is willing to buy them...

Your point is as absent as Cheney's, and neither post really pertains to the thread at hand.

Jesus dude.
Take a chill pill already.
Do you own "Wilson" stock and are afraid the "bad" talk about Wilson might lose you money?
 

[ctviggen]

I've heard Wilsons and will own RM40s as of two days from now. In fact, prior to the RM40s, I was going to buy Watt Puppies.  They were on my short list and my favorite speaker on that list.  I've heard the Watt Puppies and the Cubs and an older version of the X1 (which I thought sounded worse than the Watt Puppies, but it was not set up correctly, supposedly).  The problem is that the Cubs cost 7,500 if you get the stands.  I paid less than that for RM40s, which blow away the Cubs in my opinion.  Now, the Watt Puppies and RM40s are a much closer call, but the Watt Puppies are also 15,000.  They look nice, but I think the RM40s can take 'em.  Unfortunately, I won't have  the opportunity to do a direct comparison (i.e., in the same room on the same equipment).  For the cubs, there's really no need, as the RM40's are so much better than the Cubs.

[ctviggen]

I'm wondering if Wilson makes their speakers in USA. If so, they really should try to make them overseas, like China, so that mere mortals may hope to some day possibly own a pair.

And you're also correct that they can make magic out of drivers that sound like sh*t in other speakers.  They do that with their crossovers, and construction.  They won't even let you see their crossovers when you tour the shop.  

Supposedly Wilson does this by taking a normal driver and rewiring it and matching each driver to within some obscene level (like 0.1db).  The drivers come in matched sets, so if you pop one, you buy two (one's for your other speaker).  Obviously, the cross-overs matter a lot, too.  I've heard Wilsons in AZ and in CT, and I always liked them.  Plus, the cabinetry rocks.  Talk about dead.  The bad thing is how do you move speakers that weigh 1,000 pounds each?  Plus, one thing is that the stores always play Wilsons on great equipment.  Normally, they use 30.000 CD players and unbelievable amps, plus wires that cost more than most speakers.

[Hantra]

Bob:

Funny thing is that Wilson company demos always use some ghey system for a demo without letting anyone know what it is until the end of the demo.  Like they had an iPod this year.  So while they are great on great gear, evidently they aren't bad on just about anything.  

I heard PROCEED with Sophias, and I was floored.  I only wish I could hear them with my current amp, or something as nice.

B

[ZooDog]

Ok, I failed in the pics department today.  Sorry.  I will try again next week when I go back to try some more cables.

I've noticed that this thread has gotten a little bit heated since I've been away.  I'm not surprised since Wilsons tend to generate controversy.  As far as VMPS goes, they are not anywhere near Wilson in any aspect.  I owned some RM-1's and they were horrible.  The worst bass I've heard from any speaker.  My little B&W 600's had deeper bass extension, and yes, I screwed around with the putty until I was blue in the face and it made no difference.  I even bought more putty and that didn't help, either.  Build quality was a joke.  If there are any VMPS owners in the Boston area who want to try and prove me wrong I will gladly listen to their systems.

I now own Dynaudio Special 25's and I am very happy with them.  After putting them into my system I finally realized that mainstream audio manufacturers actually do build superior products and are not all trying to  bilk audiophiles out of their hard-earned cash as some small time audio companies would have one believe (i.e. nOrh, VMPS).  Having $$$ for good ol' R+D does get results.  I'm not saying that there are not smaller manufacturers who make good stuff, but there are not as many as people on boards like these would have you believe.

Finally, before anyone calls Wilson speakers overpriced I think it's only fair to Dave Wilson and Co. that you actually hear them.  I was amazed that such a huge multi-way speaker could sound just as seamless as a great two-way design.  It was obvious that a massive amount of work went into the development and production of the X-2.  So look up your closest Wilson dealer and go have a listen.

[Hantra]

I second all that. . .

Man Special 25's are SWEET too!!!

[zybar]

After seeing the inside of a VMPS, I actually consider VMPS to be a direct competitor of KLH.  

Then I realized after noting that VMPS has won two CES "Best of Show" awards from a group who raves about the sound quality of 128Kbps MP3, versus Wilson having been the most successful high-end speaker builder in history, I will concede to your point and say that they are not DIRECT competitor ...

Hey, that's my speaker.  

B, I know the Piegas look very, very nice, but I have listened to C-8 limited and I would take the RM 40's (not even factoring in the price).

Let's not bash the 40's and VMPS in yet another thread.

I really do think you might have missed the point on this one.

George

[Hantra]

Let's not bash the 40's and VMPS in yet another thread.

I really do think you might have missed the point on this one.

George

Nahh man. . I'm not out to bash anything really.  Driving a point home was my only intention.  

Nevertheless, I have never heard a VMPS speaker, and will readily admit that even if I liked one a whole lot, I wouldn't buy it.  

But hey, we're all freaks anyway. . .

B

[zybar]

That we are...

 

[ZooDog]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my shot at VMPS, but I have been holding my tongue for too long.  I think that it is very easy in this hobby to get tricked into thinking that a component is better than it is when it's  inexpensive because we want to believe that we are getting a great deal.  It's only human nature to act this way and I am as guilty as anyone.  I was more than happy to jump on the nOrh and then the VMPS bandwagons because I thought I was getting Lexus quality for Kia prices.

As I became more experienced (and I still consider myself a novice, btw) I came to realize that there is a reason that mainstream audio companies are mainstream - they make good stuff!  Basically all high-end audio companies started out small.  They got big because they invested a lot of cash in their businesses, built good quality products, and took care of their customers.  

I'm also sick of hearing about how Dave Wilson is some kind of scam-artist.  It seems like Brian Cheney and Dave Wilson have been in the speaker building business for about the same amount of time.  Who has done more for audio?  Why does Dave Wilson own one of the most successful companies in high-end audio and still manufacture his speakers in the USA while Brian Cheney has been running VMPS out of a garage for 20 years and now has to go overseas in order to finally get decent quality cabinets?  Who seems to care more about the quality reproduction of sound?  

I think someone here should buy RM/X's and X-2's and we should all gather for a massive face-off.  Sound like a plan?

[Red Dragon Audio]

I think someone here should give me $400,000 so I can set this up.

[Jon L]

One day, before I get old and die, I hope to see 10Hz-100kHz single-driver electrostat with massive sensitivity(110 dB/w/m) and flat impedance curve and huge excursion limits.  

It will be powered by massive 10 WPC digital amplifier with full room/speaker correction as well as DSP to exactly emulate "classic amplifer" sounds like the Wavac 833, VTL Ichibans, even 45SET at will.  

It will all be fed with 64bit/768kHz digital-direct input from my 5 ounce iPod Gen10 which can hold 100 Terrabites of memory.  

Hey, bartender, I'm out of beer  

[Double Ugly]

This guy's set-up isn't too shabby either, but a lot of "things" are attainable when you're willing to mortgage your home.  

DU

[Hantra]

I think that it is very easy in this hobby to get tricked into thinking that a component is better than it is when it's inexpensive because we want to believe that we are getting a great deal.

You see, you have touched on a great point here.  Just as some would say that Wilson uses price to attract buyers, VMPS uses the same tactic.  

To me, guys like VMPS, GR, and others use the tactic of putting expensive drivers and caps in a box, and causing the perception that one is getting some deal of the century merely based on the fact that this box contains $______ worth of parts, and is priced $______ x 4 instead of $______ x 10.

While this is neat and all, and it does cause a cult-like following amongst their buyers, it goes back to what we were originally talking about regarding a speaker being much greater than the sum of its parts.  

When I was out at Kimber, I heard a speaker that Ray built using $10K + worth of parts, and it was amazing to listen to.  But not because of the parts cost.  It was because of the massive amounts of engineering, and brainpower, and sheer physics knowledge that went into developing the speaker, and crossover.  THAT is what made this one special.  In fact, he also had one that used $600 in parts, and was about as good as anything I heard that weekend.

That's the thing I think gets me is that people's perceived value can be dramatically affected by either of these tactics, regardless of what camp you're in.

B

[ZooDog]

I agree with you 100%, Hantra.  It works both ways.  People can be duped into thinking a product is better than it is because it is either really cheap or really expensive.

[Carlman]

We're not duped into anything by anyone other than ourselves.  I know I'm obsessed and can therefore dupe myself into believing whatever I want to justify the purchase.  

I wouldn't use the term 'duped', though.  Our perception is changed based on experiences.  "Duped" could be extended to anything... we're duped by midpriced speakers because we were 'tricked' to think speaker A costs too much and speaker B costs too little... However... That makes us all sound like idiots for buying anything.

This whole hobby is a 'dupe' if you look at it that way.  How many wives/SO's understand why you bought the last piece of gear?  Just depends on your perception of things as to what is considered a dupe.

-C

[Hantra]

This whole hobby is a 'dupe' if you look at it that way.

 

To quote the "splendiferous" Don King:

"We've all been BAMBOOZLED!"