[bubba966]

Apparently they're finally going to release Hero here in the US shortly.

I'd picked it up about a year ago. It's got excellent cinematography. The fight scenes are ok. And it's not so easy to fully understand upon the initial viewing. It's got a very Crouching Tiger type feel to it. If you liked that, then I'd say that you really should check out Hero.

I watched it again a month or two back when I had a bunch of friends over. While everyone was a bit confused at the story during most of the film, they all agreed after it was over that it was pretty good. They were all happy that I'd shown it to them (as all but one person had never even heard of the movie).

So while I'm not a big fan of Jet Li (sometimes he's ok), I do like him in this role, as well of the rest of the actors. Definitely worth a viewing IMO.

[ampgalore]

Jet Li is THE most awesome martial arts actor in recent memory.

You should see some of his movies made for Chinese audiences.

Once upon a time in China trilogy has been released in the U.S. Pick that up, you'll be STUNNED by the action sequences.


Hero, does the cost of unification outweigh the sacrifices to individuality. The answer depends on who the film's producer was.

[witchdoctor]

I loved the use of colors and music in the movie. Very , very, beautiful.
Of course the action is awesome. The Once Upon a Time in China series has better action but nowhere near the cinematography.

[Ears]

Just ordered a copy of Hero...I wonder how Manderin sounds in dts-es

[ampgalore]

Just ordered a copy of Hero...I wonder how Manderin sounds in dts-es

It sounds like Chinese  

[Bemopti123]

I understand your confusion Bubba.  I went to see Hero, a couple of days ago and I was impressed.  

In order to truly understand the movie, I think that the viewers need to have a good background about the philosophies and the cultural trends that were common to the period when the movie takes place.

One of the most certain things that the movie uses is the Taoist philosophies that were common from about 500 BC and were slowly seeping in to Chinese cultures and masses by the time of the Qin dynasty, which was around 220Bc....The philoshophy deals with the nature of man, the role of man and nature and the course through which events unfold or should unfold in life.....Thus, some of the most interesting aspects of the Tao is the "quest" to return to nature....Hermits and other philosophers to dedicated themselves to their disciplines, be it alchemy and other intellectual quest became popular or common with Taoism....This trend can be perceived in the movie.  

Of course, Buddhism and what it looks like nascent Zen vision is also applied in the movie.  Buddhism had also seeped into what is today China and there mixed itself with Taoism and other common native beliefs and began to slowly become an important cultural force in China....and from here we come with the idea of sacrifice, that cannot make a "sword", but to really make a masterpiece, one "becomes the sword" the essence of the weapon or the word...Much like Zen and emptying oneself out to allow oneself to become the essence.

The movie has some wonderful connotations of Tao and Buddhism and obviously Confucionism (master student, older younger relationship) but in the end, all these beliefs are used to communicate a very simplistic and nationalistic point of view, that of China being called "our land"  must have been some government pressure to sell the movie like this?  We will never be able to tell if we are not masters of Chinese or standard Mandarin.

China is known as "JungGuo" in Chinese, or "ChungGuk" in Korea or "ZhungGuo" in Japanese and "Zhung/Chung" stands for "Middle or in between"   "Guk" means "Country"  thus, what China really stands for in Asia is Middle Country AKA: Middle Kingdom.

[ampgalore]

Buddhism wasn't introduced to China till probably 1000 years after the events of that movie.

This movie is about the price of unification, highly relevant to today's China.

There is an old saying in Chinese, use events of old to comment upon events of new.

[Bemopti123]

Amplore, I would like to correct you.

The Qin Dynasty as it was portrayed in the movie lasted just 10 years, between 220-210 BC.  

If what you are saying is true, you are telling people that Buddhism was not introduced to China until about 800 AD....Which makes me think that everything I have learned from books and from different articles is wrong...

for example, that perhaps Japan received Buddhism earlier than China?

The first embassies that introduced Buddhism to what was back then the Yamato plain were about 535-6? AD, from an embassy from Paechke, what is today Korea and back then, one of the three kingdoms, to the Soga Monobe clan, one of the several powerful clans that were vying for autonomy against other clans.

In fact, Buddhism spread throughout Eastern Asia well before the time line that you are stating.

By 800, many of the remnants of Buddhist influences in the Indian subcontinent were intermingled with the ever flexible and absorbing Hindu faiths that were prevalent in the Northern Indian Hindu plains and there were bound to be stumped out of sight when the first wave of Muslim conquering forces were to sweep through the Hindu passes, on their way to establishing the seat of what would become the Mugal dynasties that will rule Indian kindgoms until the appearance of a small Island Empire, that we know as Great Britain in the late 1700s.

Buddhism continued changed as it spread from its ancient original places, in a small Northern Indian principality of what might be today Nepal/bordering India.  Shakiamuni AKA:  Buddha, as he was known in Japan in the classical Heian period, and his teaching slowly and steadily spread its 8 path?  to Enlightnment philosophy towards Southeastern Asia (Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam) already around the beginning of the AD period.

By 800 AD, Buddhism had spread and had laid its roots down into Korea, with its original "stupa" design of Indian origin being replaced with Pagodas that became more flamboyant and grandiose as it spread towards Japan.

Around 580s, some mansons and scuptors from Asia, China and the Korean peninsula were called to what is today Asuka, about 35 miles from Nara, Japan, to help construct the first Buddhist "Ji" or temple on behalf of the powerful Soga clan.

By 700s, the largest Wooden building  in the world, the Todaiji, which is in Nara, Japan held the largest man made bronze cast Buddha in the world.

Now, are you saying that Korea and Japan received Buddhism before China, around 800 AD?

I am sorry.

[ampgalore]

Alright alright, my history is a little rusty, perhaps off by a couple hundred years.

The time period portrayed in the movie is the Qin Dynasty, about 2000 years ago. Buddhism did not thrive in China till the Tang Dynasty, 1000 years ago? Buddhism could very well have been introduced to China much earlier, but it did not really thrive till the Tang Dynasty imperium officially sanctioned it.

[Bemopti123]

Tang China, between approximately 600-900 AD, did impress the early Japanese kingdom and this "enigmatic" religion called "Bulgyo" aka: Buddhism, became the main religion among the different clans that vied for power in the early Japan already by 700 AD, by the time when the Todaiji was built.  In fact, it is quoted that about 10,000 Buddhist Monks, an especially a famous Chinese Buddhist Monk called Ganjin (688-763) became blind as he attempted to reach Nara.  He reached Nara around 753 and he began the ordination of monks Ritsu sect until his death.

This event should state that Buddhism was already a thriving religion before the building of the Todaiji in 745.  

As I previously stated, Buddhism in its early form was introduced to Japan from Paekje officially around 530s.  The King of Paekje through the gift of a bodhisattva told Prince Shomu, who most likely was not a Prince, but a clan chief that the new religion and its adoption was to give the new believer powers that would give advantage over others.  Much to the surprise of the vying clans, the Soga no monobe head decided to adopt it and this upstart clan overwhelmed the competing clans, the Fujiwara?  I forgot the name.  

Fast forward 200 years, in Heian kyo period...

The early magic or ritualistic Buddhism that was brought from Paekje (which by the time was overran by its more powerful neighbors Shilla along with Tang Chinese help) had become sooo attractive and all things Chinese, was so in vogue that the first gridded capital of ancient Japan, Nara,  to follow the model of the Tang capital.

What people need to understand is that the transferring of Buddhism via Paekje (today Southeastern Korea) around early 6th Century also meant the adoption of writing.

By the time that the Tang Dynasty was decaying in the 900s, the Japanese had already adopted and adapted classical Mandarin as their own and were even imitating poetry written in classical Chinese.  In the classical Heian Period (790-1200) before the rise of the bufoku (or Military government) Chinese was so in vogue that even chefs were to cook Chinese meals and courtesans would like Chinese courtesans.  

After the fall of Tang China, the Japanese decided to close themselves from Chinese influence until around the 1300s, for they did not see themselves in need to learn from an decayed and at the time disorderly country.  

These period of closure and disgestion of foreign influence was to make the Japanese culture that would go on to colonize and conquer the rest of Asia in the next half of milennia.  

By looking at all of this, can you still claim barely became popular during the Tang period?

A upstart sect or belief in China would not have influenced either the ancient Korean kingdoms and thus have them adopt Buddhism as one of the pilar faiths in the peninsula, and subsequently have an envoy carry the news of the faith to Asuka during the early 6th Century.

In fact, another evidence of the importance of Buddhism and its early preponderance in China and the Korean peninsula is a copy of ancient holy texts called Sutras....The most famous one is called the Tripitaka Koreana, housed in Haeinsa.  The remaining set was a secondary set copy made around the 1200s from an earlier copy that had began in the early 800s, copied by Suneung and Ijong, both monks who had studied in China.  Obviously, these two monks went to China to study a religion which had already taken root in China centuries before.  

Going back to Buddhism and more ancient sources, these philosophy was transmitted via the Silk road, which was established since the domestication of the silkworm, about 1000 bc.  By the time when the Roman Republic had decayed and became the Roman Empire with the governorship of Julius Caesar around 32 bc, there was already evidence of trade between the Chinese and the Romans.  

The Han Dynasty which followed the Qin Dynasty 200BC to about 220 AC, was readily trading with the empires of the Middle East.  

Buddhism spread North, South and Eastward via the Silk Road from the the original craddle.  One of the most beautiful influences of Buddhism around the area used to be in Afghanistan made almost 1200 years ago.  Two huge Buddhas carved on sand stone, considered World Heritage Sites, destroyed by the Taliban 1 year before the United States was to flush them out of power, in 2001.  

King Asoka from the Maurya Empire who ruled between 269-232 BC sent missionaries around Asia to spread Buddhism.  
It is around the first century AD that early Buddhist influences reach China.  From the few foreign ideas or philosophies, it was Buddhism that had a deep impact in Han China.  

Although it was first seen as a foreign and uncompatible foreign influence, with time it took root across China on the way to the Korean peninsula and Japan.

Approximate time line of Buddhism and its spread:

Buddha's life (around 550 bc)
King Asoka's rule over the Maurya Kingdom (269 BC)
Early influences of Buddhism in China (Early first century AD)
Buddhism in the Korean Peninsula (Around 100 AD)
Buddhism brought to the Japanese archipelago(530 AD)
Tang Dynasty (618-906 AD)

Hero, throws the entire timeline off when it states that the Qin Kingdom accured 2,000 ago.  At the time, The Han Dynasty was on its zenith, while the Qin Dynasty had crumbled due to heavy handed taxes, disgrunt and civil war until the first Han Emperor was able to take the reigns of the Kingdom.  I guess the Qin Emperor who so wanted to unite the land under his legalist or heavy handed system did not think that after his death, his rule through fear would really last, right?

Check a very interesting site about Buddhism and the Silk Road.

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/buddhism.shtml

Going back to the movie, the colors, I believe have something to do with a sort of metaphor that the director wanted to make about human nature...

Some colors that were prevalent...

Red for violance, passion, love, death.

Black, as the Qin, that absorb it all under their mantle of violence, warfare....death.

There was also I think a blue or turquoise etc....

After all, the movie director was famous for his art house features as
Raise the Red Lantern, the Shanghai Triad etc....

An exceptional aspect of the movie is the use of so many artifacts and patterns that correspond to old archeological artifacts of the ancient Chinese kindgoms....The coins, the shape of the cups with the three feet etc....

[viggen]

I am sure I've seen this movie a long long time ago.  But, as I've only seen a short trailer of this movie when I saw Bourne Supremacy, I can't totally recall if I did see this movie or not.  

When was it made?  Maybe I'd go see it at the local cineplex this weekend, but I'd feel stupid if I already saw it already.  

Interesting discourse on Chinese history and religion/philosophy.  So, this movie was set during the first dynasty around 200bc?  

It's true that Buddhism first sowed its seed in China around this time.  However, much like early Christianity during this time in western civilization, Buddhism was not a recognized religion.  

I will go on record and say that Buddhism isn't a religion at all.  It is a bastardized version of Indian philosophy as the Chinese dialect during this time was not sophisticated enough to understand Buddhism.  Instead, it borrowed from Taoist languages to derive what most Asians believe is Buddhism today, a religion.   It is because Tao uses many illiteral language that is not meant to be taken literally.  

I came to this conclusion after taking a class in eastern philosophy.  We studied the dao de jing, however, I was not happy with our professor's translation of it, and I attempted to translate the DDJ myself.  I am Chinese and am still fluent in the language though I lived in US almost all my life, so the language barrier is somewhat there.  Doesn't help that DDJ's dialect is 2000 years old.  But, the language in the DDJ tries to catch the essence of what is being transpired instead of telling you directly.  I think this is another beauty of the DDJ that hasn't been caught on by most all of the translations of the DDJ I've found.

Anyhow, the Tang dynasty is known as a sort of a renaissance during Chinese culture.  During this time, Buddhism consolidated itself as a major philosophy/religion.  However, it was the period before the Tang and after the Han where we see Buddhism really spread.  It was known as a warring period as China was experiencing internal struggles for power as well as constant wars with the northern "barbarians".  Common folks saught refuge in Buddhism, much like early westerners sought refuge in Christianity when times got tough.

Anyhow, I will report in these aspects about the movie after I watch it (again).

(it occured to me that this post MIGHT offend those that are religious.  sorry, it is just my PERSONAL belief that religion is usually adopted by the mentally weak)

[Bemopti123]

Very interesting way of looking at what we call "cultural" mixing in regards to Buddhism in comparison with Hinduism.  Going back earlier, I remember that even Hinduism can be called a "sourceless" religion, for there is no one master from who there can be a specific source of religion and teaching.


All religions have a sort of bastardization...I am happen to be Korean, but am a Catholic from upbrinding.  What is interesting to see are the ways in which most of the modern religions of the world stated, in the Fertile Crescent.  Even before Christiany could be called such, there were the ancient religions of the early Mesopotamia, from there we have a spread of certain notions of behavior, the role of the man in the world....Some religions which might have had influences on one another...Zoroastrim....Judaism into early Christian sects (yes, Jesus was considered a heretic among other Jewish sects) and the indirect influence of Judaism and Christianity in Islam.  

To be PC, I would not call a belief that millions follow "bastardized" beliefs...Just plain, "belief."

Going back to Amplore, I would correct your timeline about the spread of  Buddhism through Asia.

[ampgalore]

Alright, I give up. This reminds me exactly of why I chose not to go into Asian studies.  


P.S. Professor Gun, help (my old college professor)!

[Bemopti123]

Amplore, it is oKay.

I was not an Asian studies major, but did take a course in Ancient Japanese history and travelled to the sites that I was telling you about, Asuka in Southern Nara, Japan and also the temple at Todaiji, in Nara, this July.

There are people in our country, the US that cannot even read the news well and still say statements like "there is a relationship between the 911 and the invasion in Iraq."  All of this is still said even after the findings and the rebuttals of many who said that there was never a relationship between both.  It is scary to think that people cannot even "see" what they read from different sources and make a decision....It makes me think of that one political cartoon that said that the only link between Al Qaida and Iraq lied in the "Q."  

Well, I still liked Hero minus the propaganda part at the end (Our Land.)

[KKM]

Thanks Bemopti123 for the interesting history lesson.

[viggen]

I just saw this movie today.  I didn't see the religious and philosophical connotations.  And, the "our country" is a bad translation of the "two words".  What the broken sword guy actually wrote is "everything under the sky".  What he meant was our personal problems are insignificant to the tribulations  shared by us all; war, famine, poverty etc etc.

I can force myself to see some humanistic/social ideologies such as the self vs the others, the one vs the many, Maslow heirarchy of needs sort of things. Just so happens the Qin emperor, the Hero and the Broken sword all would, for a lack of better words, score quite evenly on a VALS test.  They were all experiential rather than material or safety predicated individuals.  And, only they understand each other, therefore, the movie ended the way it did.

I rather thought this movie is a meeting of Royal Tennebaums and Crouching Tiger with cinematography copying another famous HKnese director Wong Kai Wer, the guy who directed In the Mood for Love and ChungKing Express.

Oh yeah, and for the record, I went to see the fighting.  I am dissapointed.

[soundboy]

Same cinematographer for "Hero" and Wong Kar-wei movies....Christopher Doyle.

[viggen]

No wonder they look so much alike.

And what is the deal with the colors?  Red=passion?  Blue=serenity?  Green=life?  White=purity?  Well, not saying these colors are used this way in the movie.  Just that these are the ways they are usually used in theater or literature.