veneer experts needed

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BK_856er

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veneer experts needed
« on: 16 Mar 2014, 08:30 pm »
My first veneer project will be the LGK enclosures.

I've settled on paper backed veneer with HeatLock glue and the iron-on method, plus softener prior to use.

Planning to use 3/8" roundover on just the front vertical edge and wrap the veneer on the front and sides.

Got my big sheet of veneer, but it has numerous areas like the one shown below.  I can probably work around them, but my yield for future projects will then take a huge hit.  Can this type of defect be successfully repaired, and if so how?  Last thing I want is a wart on my cabinet!

BK



Peter J

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #1 on: 16 Mar 2014, 09:12 pm »
Hmmm, I'd expect good quality paper back veneer not to have cross grain cracks, which is what that appears to be. What's the wood species? Can it be repaired? I'd say yes, but if this is your first venture into veneering, I don't think you'd love doing it. It'd be easier to repair and conceal if it were already pressed on substrate, but that begs the question should I go ahead and use it? It definitely would be hard to get around a radius.

In all  honesty, I wouldn't apply it knowing that was there. Have you contacted supplier? Many would consider that a returnable defect, I would think.

RAW

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #2 on: 16 Mar 2014, 09:31 pm »
To me several hundred sheets i have applied onto speaker cabinets.This only happens if somehow something pushed in from the rear of the sheet.

Is it worth using yes
If possible just plan your cuts above and below this imperfection and or return to the supplier.

Just my 2 cents..

BK_856er

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #3 on: 16 Mar 2014, 10:17 pm »
Thanks, guys.

Veneer type is paper backed curly makore, heavily figured.  4x10' size.  Quite beautiful.  Supplier thought I would have no issue wrapping this particular piece around a 3/8" radius with the grain during pre-purchase communications.

I'd say there are 8-10 of these problem areas on the sheet.  Definitely cross-grain cracks.  Rough handling?

If I forgo the radius/wrap-around and cover the individual panels life would be much easier due to the small sections required, but then I compromise my design plans to accommodate the veneer.  Need to ponder that one.

Still waiting to hear back from the supplier.

BK


mlundy57

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #4 on: 17 Mar 2014, 12:48 am »
For what you probably paid for that piece of veneer, if it happened to me I would send it back for a replacement piece.

When doing the iron on method. the heat is going to cause the wood to want to shrink. If the veneer is well adhered to the backing it wont shrink but if it is not it very well may.

With 8-10 breaks like that I'd wonder what else is wrong with that piece of veneer?

Mike

Hank

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #5 on: 17 Mar 2014, 10:33 am »
I also would ask for a replacement.  For over 20 years I've used only one type of veneer:  10-mil paper-backed, from inexpensive oak to hideously expensive rosewood, including makore.  I have never received a sheet with a defect like yours.  FWIW, I have always used contact cement.  I tried Heatlock once and there were no advantages over contact cement and the leftover went bad in a few months.  BTW, I've always done 3/4" radius round overs on the front vertical cabinet edges.  My main source over the years has been Tape-Ease: http://www.tapeease.com/10_mil_%20veneer.htm
All the best on your project!

GT Audio Works

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #6 on: 17 Mar 2014, 11:18 am »
Yes , sure looks like rough handling, rolled too tight. You said numerous areas like the one shown...send it back.
I have had no experience repairing paper backed. Raw wood veneer is easy to fix since there is no substrate between the veneer and the speaker cabinet any cracks are set hard in the glue to the surface as pressure is applied, after drying and sanding they are gone.
It also yields good results with grafting a small piece of veneer onto a  damaged area with cyanoacrylate glue on chipped corners and edges etc.
But not having tried it on paper backed I would not want to say. Greg

BK_856er

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #7 on: 17 Mar 2014, 03:25 pm »
Thanks for chiming in, guys.  This feedback really helps me to calibrate my expectations.  Will see what I can work out with the supplier.

I'd like to use a larger radius on the edge, but the little LGK can only accept 3/8" due to material thickness.

I suppose for this small first-timer project contact cement would have been a good way to go, but heatlock is in the plans this time around.  Will hustle on project #2 before it has a chance to go bad!

BK

mlundy57

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #8 on: 17 Mar 2014, 07:21 pm »
It is going to be difficult to roll veneer around a 3/8" radius without some splitting, even with veneer softener.

Me, I'm too chicken to try so I'm going to leave all the edges straight on my LGK's.

Mike

randytsuch

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #9 on: 17 Mar 2014, 07:59 pm »
Me, I'm too chicken to try so I'm going to leave all the edges straight on my LGK's.

Mike

Me too.
I bought some raw figured makore veneer
No rounded corners for me, going to do the back first, then sides, then top then front, trimming along the way.

My first try at veneering too.

BK_856er

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #10 on: 26 Mar 2014, 01:12 am »
Vendor sent me a replacement sheet and told me to keep the original.  The replacement arrived today and it looks very nice.  Kudos to rosebud for taking care of things.

Still nervous about the 3/8" roundover - this makore seems kinda fragile.  I think I'll practice and see how it goes.

Question for Danny if he's following - is a vertical roundover purely cosmetic, or does it meaningfully affect LGK performance?

Question for makore lovers - what's your favorite finishing technique?

BK

RAW

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #11 on: 26 Mar 2014, 01:54 am »
Rosebud is a great ebay seller and I have purchased lots of sheets from him as a fact a 4x10 just a month ago.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SAPELE-POMMELE-4-X-10-PAPERBACKED-VENEER-SHEET-/261234237567


3/8 is tight for sure around a corner.Not that is not a possible but depends on the veneer as well as experience.

If you can try a small piece on a sample radius first.

Just my 2 cents.
Have a look at
Interlux Brightside

BK_856er

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #12 on: 26 Mar 2014, 02:31 am »
Beautiful wood, RAW.

Looks like Interlux Brightside is a colored polyurethane marine paint??

BK

RAW

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #13 on: 26 Mar 2014, 02:40 am »
Yes thanks for the comment. All for a large Apex C center for a person who purchased a line array I built years ago. This will match his arrays.

Yes a easy finish to apply with high leveling properties. Works great... And durable.

Captainhemo

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #14 on: 26 Mar 2014, 02:46 am »
Rosebud is a great ebay seller and I have purchased lots of sheets from him as a fact a 4x10 just a month ago.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SAPELE-POMMELE-4-X-10-PAPERBACKED-VENEER-SHEET-/261234237567



Hey Raw,  does he ship it direct to you or do you  just have it shipped  to somewhere in Wa (Pt Roberts ?) and drive down and pick it up ?

-jay

RAW

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #15 on: 26 Mar 2014, 02:59 am »
I have ordered direct to me years ago when I was ordering several sheets at a time from Rosebud and other sources. Now I use a shipping spot in Blaine Washington just a few minutes from my door.
http://blaineenterprises.com/

$3.00 per package and I can leave work cross be home with in 1hr if I time it right.

around 15 yrs ago I used The letter carrier in Point Roberts they are still in business.

Captainhemo

Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #16 on: 26 Mar 2014, 04:58 am »
I have ordered direct to me years ago when I was ordering several sheets at a time from Rosebud and other sources. Now I use a shipping spot in Blaine Washington just a few minutes from my door.
http://blaineenterprises.com/

$3.00 per package and I can leave work cross be home with in 1hr if I time it right.

around 15 yrs ago I used The letter carrier in Point Roberts they are still in business.


I have a buddy in Ladner so   I have had Danny ship my kits to  the letter carrier and  had my buddy  pick them up for me, just  don't like asking him all the time which is why I was curiouos to know if you were having it shipped direct.    Maybe next time I'll have a few things shipped there so they can all be picked up with the one trip.  Plus, I'm  out of cheese  !  (he gets this killer pepper corn stuff in Pt Roberts for  a great price)  :lol:

-jay

BK_856er

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #17 on: 7 Apr 2014, 01:26 am »
To prepare myself for the LGK I experimented with a neglected kiddie project bird house.  I have good hand tool skills, but I've never used a router or laminated anything in my life, so I thought some practice was a good idea.  I also wanted to determine if I could accomplish a 3/8" roundover with this dry/brittle veneer.  I could tell by handling the cut veneer piece that it is very prone to cracking.

First step was to roundover, then cut some 6x18" makore veneer and soften half of it, then roll on some heatlock glue, then iron on the veneer at 190F, then flush trim.  Got a chance to try out cutting the veneer with scissors and veneer saw and box cutter.  Router compression flush trim bit worked well on the glued veneer, except for the edge with the roundover - got lots of chipouts where the veneer changes direction - what's the best technique to deal with that, carefully follow the contour of the corner instead of a straight pass??

The veneer seemed to work out OK on the sharp radius.  I suppose the softener helped the corner, but both sides looked OK.  The softener did create a little waviness on the front face (it's the darker/left side) where there were micro cracks.  I'll watch it for a few days and see if anything changes.

I'm happy with the experiment, but any tips appreciated!

BK








mlundy57

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #18 on: 7 Apr 2014, 01:54 am »
Have you had any type of bleed through? When I was reading up on Heat Lock the information I found said you could only use it on paperbacked veneer. Let us know how it holds up.

One trick for the chip out is to put a layer or two of painter's on the side the bearing will ride against. This will leave the veneer a little long so you can sand it back to final position. 

Mike

BK_856er

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Re: veneer experts needed
« Reply #19 on: 7 Apr 2014, 02:01 am »
Thanks for the bearing trick.

This makore veneer IS paperbacked, so no bleed through.

BK