[fantail]

Hi,

I have been running in some Audio Nirvana Super 10" Full range speakers with Ferrite Magnets (image below). In general sound reproduction terms I think they are very good, with amazing mid range, detail at all sound levels, separation and speed, and very realistic soundstage. In many ways better than my Spendor S8E's which I have just sold after deciding to keep the AN's.

However being critical and always looking for tweaks, the areas of improvement could be a calmer treble, and a more assertive bass. So after talking to Common Sense Audio, it sounds like there are a couple of immediate options to try. A bigger cabinet, or an Alnico version of the same size driver. I like the idea of trying the Alnico in the same cabinets, and then making bigger cabinets at some stage....when I have a bigger room!

Has anyone had the same experience with AN drivers or moving to Alnico of any kind?

The other consideration is the significant increase in price....is this worth it?

Thanks for your consideration and any feedback

CGC

[ejfud]

Nice speakers! My only experience is going from the standard stamped frame 8" to the cast frame 8" and there was a definite difference in the overall sound quality. Not sure what the Alnico would add. I'd try adding a sub for the lows this sometimes clear up the top end.

[fantail]

Hey thanks for the reply and advice. I'm pretty happy with cabinets, made in China, bought through the guy who sells Mark Audio in Hong Kong.

I was trying to avoid adding another box, but haven't discounted completely. Initially I quizzed Audio Nirvana about adding a tweeter (without crossover), to try and help the separation, as you suggest with the bass unit, but they are pretty adamant that the Full Ranger is all you need.

I notice you have some cool projects, and I see the addition of a tweeter in some cases,....were these added to a FR, and what do you think about the results?

I've noticed most of the big DIY projects, usually have a combination of speaker sizes, so I wonder if this is where I'm heading? Though I do really like the simplicity of a single driver.

CGC

[DanH]

Are you using baffle step compensation? In my system based on a tb w8-1808 I needed a 4db bsc to balance the bass response. I also ended up using a zobel circuit to tame the top octave.

[FullRangeMan]

FANTAIL,
Forget electric active filters as Zobel, capacitors, crossovers etc you buy fullrange driver why you like the point source and the harmonics a FR offer, a electric part will kill all the goodess from any fullrange.
Also the Alnico are better because the please even order harmonics this magnet offer, as preferred by the guitarists too.

IMO: The Super10Alnico show the best(less peaky) freq chart on the CommomSense site, his price made it a expensive driver, but it offer a big magnet and good SPL level.

I see your box is small, a box like this will do a anemic bass and favor the mid and treble freq, a Super10 need the 5.6 box to offer some decent bass.

Also you need stuff the box inside to attenuate the hi's and up the bass.
Some tips are in this topic:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100689.msg1018174#msg1018174

Please Note: Without the inside box treatment there is no sweet treble.
Cheers

[JLM]

Extended range drivers don't offer the flat frequency response of a good 2-way (or more) design, so help is warranted. 

But a better option to baffle step/zobel circuits is use of DEQ (digital equalization).  If you're using a computer source, this can be done with software (and a microphone for initial testing).  If you're still spinning a source, DEQ is also available via a separate piece of gear (Behringer DEQ2496 is an inexpensive/popular option but complicated to setup and quality control is suspect).  I happened to get a good DEQ2496 and still use it.

[fantail]

Thanks guys for the feedback and advice, a lot of good ideas. I'm pretty open minded with the solutions, so will research all. Of course it makes sense to start with the simplest, so I will probably look inside and try internal treatments.

Fullrangeman, I read on that thread that one of the posters cut out the whizzer cone, do you have any thoughts on that. Also, they were saying that the Fostex driver takes 3 years to break in. In the last couple of weeks I've probably doubled the AN's playing time (150hours in total) and they seem to be losing their 'brightness' and settling down. Do you have any idea on how long a full break in could take?

Any more thoughts on the Alnicos as a choice of magnet? I really love that guitar sound, which I guess comes from a Tube/Alnico Guitar Amp. Are the Alnicos universally accepted as a good choice, or is it down to personal preference in terms of their characteristics? I recently listened to some Audio Note speakers for the first time. 2 Way with Alnico main drivers. They sounded pretty good, and there philosophy seems to be a purest approach, so I'm sure they would only add a tweeter and electronics if they thought it was the best solution.

CGC

[Scottmoose]

A few general points:

-Irrespective of the merits or otherwise of AlNiCo as a magnet material (see below), the S10 AlNiCo has only 73% of the motor strength of the current S10 Cast frame (ferrite magnet) model.
-Q on the AlNiCo model is almost double that of the ferrite model
-This, in conjunction with other differences, will completely change the cabinet alignment. Any claims otherwise are in contradiction to known physical reality. They are not interchangeable. Not by a long chalk
-AlNiCo. Oh yes indeed. You want the truth, or audiophile bollocks? Assuming the former, then theoretically it can have some advantages over ferrite. As in 'can.' Not all AlNiCo magnets are created equal. Neither are all ferrite magnets, neodymium magnets or most others for that matter. There are over 30 popular commercial grades of AlNiCo in China alone. The lower grades can actually be inferior to some of the better grades of ferrite in the areas where a high grade AlNiCo would pull ahead, and manufacturers very rarely state which grade they used. And this is assuming that you are comparing like with like, i.e. the drivers in question have basically the same EM specs. -In the case of the 10in Audio Nirvanas, they don't, rendering comparisons somewhat moot.

[planet10]

It should be noted that David Dicks does not believe in using T/S parameters to design his enclosures. The end result is that his enclosures do not extract optimum results from the drivers.

It should also be noted that if one looks at the ferrite vrs the alnico that the 2 drivers are very different. They willnot work (optimally) in the same box. The highish Q of the Alnico version means one has to be VERY careful putting them in a vented box.

I would suggest that step 1 would be to optimize the tuning of the box & driver you already have. Then look at BSC.

dave

[FullRangeMan]

Fantail,
I would never remove the whizzer cone, if result are bad it cant be replaced, but its a nice experiment.
Usually FR fans remove the paper dome only and put a wood phase plug, I would secure the wood phase plug with glue only, and remove the plug metal screws, to avoid magnet interference.

3 years to breakin a Fostex is unlikely IMO(maybe 1 hour per day?), but I will let this point to Scottmoose that is a reputed Fostex expert.
I unaware your driver breakin time, but it could be much more than 300 hours I guess.

As well said by others posters there are various kinds of Alnico magnets, some had good sound and are expensive, that good sound not appear in specifications, graphs or measurements, so necessary you listen the driver before purchase or talk a trustworthy, impartial person that already listen the driver, which are difficult to find.

I suspect the great Alnico harmonics came from cobalt, which is a more expensive metal than aluminium or nickel, since it becomes in hi demand for nuke bombs and reactors.
So Einstein entirely f*** the audiophiles forever.

Alnicos are famous for please many musicians and FR fans(a small elite, even in the entire world, afew thousands people only), please note that the design of a alnico driver and a ferrite one are quite different.

The AN 2way speakers seems a refined project, but there is others more value per $.
Alnicos are universally accepted as better sound only among musicians, in audio it is infrequently used due the price, so Ferrite rule the audio press.

[fantail]

Thanks again FULLRANGE man for advising on the practicalities, and SCOTTMOUSE with some additional info on the technical side which I'd almost forgotten about.

I started this particular journey (single driver) trying to find an affordable "guinea pig" unit. I thought a 10 inch would be the "sweet spot" as I didn't have the confidence to choose from the many 8 inch options, and, to achieve the bass, a complicated cabinet design. Actually I was keen on discovering if there was merit in the Rehdeko 115.....to me that simply meant Single driver in a small cabinet.

I tried plugging in the parameters of all of the 10 inch speakers I could find available for sale online into one of those box size calculators, Beyma, Ciare were the only speakers I could find, and then finally the Audio Nirvana which came with some cabinet plans. So not wanting to delay I ordered the AN's.

From listening over the last few months, I'm convinced this is the way I want to go. To the point where in the last week I've just sold my Spendor S8e's. Which at 3 x the price, were the best speakers I'd owned.

The various posts on this thread have got me really thinking again about how I can improve. So going back to basics I read an article about room placement. I'll have a go later this week at moving things around. It can't get any simpler than that. In parallel I'll also research the Alnico option and try figuring out the ideal cabinet size. I'd still like to balance as much as possible sound vs stealth in terms of cabinet size/impact.

SCOTTMOUSE I take your point on the various qualities of magnets. The 10 inch size seems to be limiting for Alnico, as there aren't many available? So perhaps I need to start thinking about a smaller size, and this will probably afford more flexibility in terms of a cabinet. After a quick search the Omega XRS looks interesting.

In any case, I'll get back with any updates and questions in the next few days. Thanks again for everyones advice.

CGC

[fantail]

Ooops, sorry SCOTTMOOSE, I couldn't have got it more wrong!

CGC

[planet10]

I thought a 10 inch would be the "sweet spot"

You will get an argument there. AFAIC sweet spot is 4-5"

dave

[JLM]

Love my 8 inch whizzerless EnABLed Fostex F200A (AlNiCo) drivers, but if given a do over I'd look first at 3 - 5 inch drivers with a swarm of subs.

[Scottmoose]

Lots of options.

As noted above, I would advise not becoming fixated on AlNiCo. It's a fine magnet material (or can be), but it is not possessed of mystical properties whereby anything it touches must somehow be 'better.' So I wouldn't make major sacrifices elsewhere or reject other units out of hand simply on the basis of the magnet material. AlNiCo is in many cases employed for its marketing value rather than for any performance gains. There are some where it's used properly -the aforementioned F200a; some of the Lowthers (although you'll still need to like the Lowther presentation), probably the Omega drivers etc. (haven't had one through here so can't comment). But there are plenty where there is zero real benefit.

[FullRangeMan]

Lots of options.

As noted above, I would advise not becoming fixated on AlNiCo. It's a fine magnet material (or can be), but it is not possessed of mystical properties whereby anything it touches must somehow be 'better.'

Unfortunately this is viable only in North America, where maybe the audiophiles would listen these drivers in a dealer and made a first hand verdict.
For overseas custumers its quite difficult find these drivers as the only guidance avaliable are the pay magazine reviews or Forums.

[Scottmoose]

You've lost me. What is 'only viable in North America'?* The fact is, there are lots of possible options (as in drive units) in the 4in - 8in size categories that are well worth considering. Some have AlNiCo magnets. Most do not. And I certainly would not rule out those that do not (most of them) just because they don't have AlNiCo magnets. An AlNiCo magnet does not automatically provide magical properties to a driver so equipped, especially those where it's only been used for marketing, rather than engineering reasons.


*I'm British by the way, not American. And as for our American cousins, to the best of my knowledge, you won't find any dealers there either where you can walk in & listen to a variety of wideband drive units. I certainly haven't heard of any. About the only place were you could is Japan, where wideband drivers are very popular and there is a large and highly enthusiastic DIY scene.

[FullRangeMan]

Well, if things are hard for American FR fans Iam more conformal.