JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.

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Ears

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« on: 15 Aug 2004, 05:51 pm »
Ok, I got all three digital (sometimes analog) wonders burned in whith over 200 hours each.

All levels were matched whith a Rat Shack meter, and the same digital coaxial cable and analog ic's were used, as well as the same modified Powervar power conditioner.
All used stock pc's.
All comparisons both digital and analog were done whith my modified Philips 963sa.
All comparisons were conducted whith Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms"  cd for 2 channel digital.
All sa-cd 2 channel comparisons were done whith Joe Satrianis "Stange Beautiful Music"

All three were run full range and whith my dual subs turned off.

My results, done earlier yesterday were for digital sonics in two channel
1 Panny 45 voices, drums guitars ect are all far more transparent on the Pany 45, and to my ears, it is still the digital wonder king for 2 channel digital.

2 Kenwood 7100 was second best on the digital 2 channel side of things whith a slightly fuller midrange but lacking in transparency as compared to the 45.

JVC RX-10 has a smoother overall sound than the other two, but I did not find it as transparent as even the 7100 is whith slightly rolled off highs and slightly better perceived bass from my 45hz monitors.

On the analog side of things, things took a not so suprising turn.

1 JVC RX-10, while it was really close, to my ears, the JVC (Using 5.1 inputs) had a slight edge over the Kenwood 7100 which also has suprisingly good sounding 2 channel analog sonics.
2 Kenwood 7100
3 A distant third was the Pany 45

I later used my wife and my nephew blinfolded and the results were similar.

Digital 2 channel
1 Both picked the 45 as there choice.
2 Both picked the Kenwood second.
3 For digital 2 channel, the RX-10 finished 3rd for both although my nephew called it real close.

Analog 2 channel
1 My nephew picked the JVC RX-10, although he said it was a tough call between it and the Kenwood.
2 My wife also picked the JVC rx-10, and also had a tough time choosing between the two.

For sa-cd 2 channel
1 again, it was close whith my nephew picking the JVC for its slightly fuller sounding bass.

My wife slightly preffered the Kenwoods highs, but had a tough time choosing.

To through a wrench in the mix while they were blinfolded, I hooked up my freshly modded Sim i-5 that still needs 100's of hours to sound its best.
The bass is weak at this point in the break in, so this would tell me how close, non audiophool hearing, is to the rest of us phools :D

They assumed that the i-5 was one of the three digital/analog wonders labeled 1 2 3.

My nephew said that what he thought was # 2(Sim i-5) had better highs, and that the JVC had seemingly better bass. while playing a bass heavy Satriani track.

My wife just picked  the i-5 as better sounding.

They both said that the 45 had by far, the greatest difference between digital and analog inputs ...on the fly.

If anyones interested, the H/T mini shootout the results

1 Panny by a fairly large margin
2 Kenwood
3 jvc

These H/T results will be posted at avs later tonight.

All of these digital wonders are a sonic bargain and while the Pany remains the king of digital imo, the JVC is the king of analog, and the Kenwood holds its own doing either.

This was all done in my room, whith my speakers ect, so I still reccomend using your own ears and room,speakers ect.
Not to mention basing the results on what you are using the digital/analog wonder for.
In my case , H/T, occasional cd use, and whith future modification to two 45's used in a bi amp 2 and 6.1 configuration, maybe nirvana.

These are good times to be an audiophool on a budget :D

cjr888

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #1 on: 15 Aug 2004, 06:54 pm »
Much thanks for the comparison, and for talking family into A/B testing.  That's usually more trouble that swapping components in and out.  :-)

If its in the review and I didn't catch it, just direct me, but I saw comparisons of each unit using digital in, and comparisons of units using analog in -- did you by chance compare Panny digital directly against the other two in analog as comparison?

Ears

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #2 on: 15 Aug 2004, 11:15 pm »
Quote from: cjr888
Much thanks for the comparison, and for talking family into A/B testing.  That's usually more trouble that swapping components in and out.  :-)

If its in the review and I didn't catch it, just direct me, but I saw comparisons of each unit using digital in, and comparisons of units using analog in -- did you by chance compare Panny digital directly against the other two in analog as comparison?


I never made a point to ask my wife, but my nephew said that the Pany 45 in digital mode had a cleaner clearer overall sound, and that voices were much more distinct.
He also said that his opinions could change if we were able to compare one receiver to the other on the fly, and not just the analog/ digital sections of each whith down time in between.
You have to remember that just because I like the digital 45's precise transparent sound, it may not be for you or your set up and room.

I could live whith any of these three, not having heard the others in the same set up for instance.

The widest gap is in H/T mode whith the Pany 45, being in a different, and to my ears, better category than the other two.
We later bi amped two 45's on the front three channels and ran a sub off each 45.
The difference between one and two 45's was huge.

I can't wait to get enough cabling to run all 6 channels bi amped.

ooheadsoo

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #3 on: 16 Aug 2004, 03:13 am »
Wow, thanks so much for that shootout.  I'm glad the jvc came out on top for analog because that's what I'm going to be using it for when it arrives tomorrow!  Highly anticipating your HT shootout on avs.  It'll be in the amps, receivers, processors category right?  I hope the jvc isn't too bad for HT :p

srayle

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digital shootout
« Reply #4 on: 16 Aug 2004, 04:32 am »
so let me get this straight, you put de lime in de coconut...oops, no
I mean, if you have good digital front end (like a decent cd transport and good DAC) its better to go through the analog inputs. otherwise, going through the digital inputs the receiver becomes the DAC, interpreting the digital input. So THAT sounds better on the Panny. Otherwise if you have a good digital front end, the JVC may be a good option? :|

ooheadsoo

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #5 on: 16 Aug 2004, 04:34 am »
Sure sounds like that to me.  Which is just perfect because I don't plan on ever using the panny, kenwood, or jvc as a dac :p

Rob Babcock

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #6 on: 16 Aug 2004, 04:37 am »
Lots of food for thought.  I've been looking to pick up one of these little digital wonders, but my finances are pretty pathetic right now.  Under normal circumstances I'd buy all three & keep the best one (or two), but unfortunately I can't do that right at the moment.  This does help narrow it down for me, though.  Problem is, right now it seems all you can get in the Panny's is a refurb- I really don't want to go that route.

I'm leaning towards the JVC when I'm back in the cash again.  And probably at least getting the IEC mod from Wayne at Boulder.  I think he's also looking into potential mods for the JVC- that might be worth a look.

ooheadsoo

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #7 on: 16 Aug 2004, 04:39 am »
With my soldering "skills" resurrected by my last diy speaker adventure, I feel up to it to do some mods on the jvc myself...if only someone would post explicit directions :P  I can follow a pictorial guide...like a monkey :)

Ears

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Re: digital shootout
« Reply #8 on: 16 Aug 2004, 02:44 pm »
Quote from: srayle
so let me get this straight, you put de lime in de coconut...oops, no
I mean, if you have good digital front end (like a decent cd transport and good DAC) its better to go through the analog inputs. otherwise, going through the digital inputs the receiver becomes the DAC, interpreting the digital input. So THAT sounds better on the Panny. Otherwise if you have a good digital front end, the JVC may be a good option? :|


If you have my exact set up.....yes :lol:

I do not have a seperate dac, and whith future Pany mods, I will never ever consider a dac as it is a powered dac in pure digital form to the binding posts.
My transport is decent and the analog section is modified, along whith the digital outs, and the entire ps is re-vamped.

Keep in mind. this is my set up and things could vary in yours.
In my set up, the all Scan Speak drivers whith alpa core/Hovland caps, love the Panys exacting precise resolution that the other two receivers lack in direct comparison.

For me, this was about making sure which one I wanted to keep and have modded, not which one you may like in your set up whith your room and speakers ect.

I used a VH pulsar 1.5m digital cable on all three and Dh analog ic's for analog.
My other ic's have Silclear on them, and I tried to keep this as fair as possible.

My nephew mentioned that all the receivers had a hi end sound to them as compared to your average analog receivers, and that he considered all of them a bargain, if that makes you feel any better.

There really are no losers here, just what works best for you, for your needs and in YOUR set up.

ABEX

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #9 on: 16 Aug 2004, 03:00 pm »
Thanks for the info. I know you took a lot of time doing it!

Ears

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #10 on: 16 Aug 2004, 03:20 pm »
Quote from: ABEX
Thanks for the info. I know you took a lot of time doing it!


Your welcome, the best part was listening to the two blindfolded non audiophools descriptions for what they heard  :lol:

They seem to hear the same things that the rest of us hear,but there descriptions were priceless as well as refreshing.

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #11 on: 16 Aug 2004, 04:44 pm »
Outstanding Ears.....I'm so glad a bunch of folks are hearing what I am hearing with the JVC; great sound at nearly any price, not just great value.

I heard significant degradation of the final sound with digital inputs vs. analog on the JVC....but I'm pretty happy with my front end now ($4500 into it), so I'm damn glad I am.

Super review - very enlightening, thanks.  :)

Ears

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #12 on: 16 Aug 2004, 05:57 pm »
Quote from: ooheadsoo
Wow, thanks so much for that shootout.  I'm glad the jvc came out on top for analog because that's what I'm going to be using it for when it arrives tomorrow!  Highly anticipating your HT shootout on avs.  It'll be in the amps, receivers, processors category right?  I hope the jvc isn't too bad for HT :p


If I had no direct comparison in my set up, I could live whith the JVC's H/T sonics just fine.
In another set up, especially whith bright sounding speakers for instance, the JVC may very well have come out on top in H/T mode.

The JVC came very close to the freshly modded Sim i-5 in 2 channel sa-cd mode through its multi ins.

I think that is saying a lot for a 300.00 (street price) or less receiver that is about 1/10th the cost.

AphileEarlyAdopter

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #13 on: 16 Aug 2004, 06:25 pm »
Ears,
Great work. Looks like we have a choice for people who want the sound output to have a 'character' as imparted by their DAC of choice.  The 'raw' sound of the Panasonic may not be to everyone's liking. I think mods will make it more transparent, getting closer to the recording, at which point some might change their mind. When you are doing high-fidelity, it is better to get it done 100%. I think, this is the main reason majority of the audiophile products go for some sort of 'flavor'. True high-fidelity is too costly. But the Panny with its use of digital technology has made it very close.

BTW, the other day, I was surprised I had to turn up the volume on my XR50 to my usual level, later I figured out I was using the analog inputs from my 963SA. Note here, I did not notice easily the loss of transparency between analog and digital inputs. ie. I suspect, the XR50 might be better in analog inputs. Also, Steve @ Empirical Audio is changing the analog inputs from AC coupled to DC coupled (avoiding a cap) as part of his mods. This should improve the analog reproduction. Anyways, I am just waiting for the XR70. No more DACs for me.

Zero

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #14 on: 16 Aug 2004, 08:29 pm »
edit: nevermind ! Good write up

Ears

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #15 on: 17 Aug 2004, 03:18 pm »
Yesterday, I wired up two 45's and bi amped all 6 channels after matching and/or adjusting each 45 individually.
Throw in the movie The Transporter for some DD action.

I used a coaxial cable from the 963 as well as an optical cable on the Pany running the mid/lows.

The results are nothing short of fantastic whith cleaner more precise sounding highs, and effortless punchy and tight bass whith impact to spare.
Lots of headroom and way more slam.

First impression was  :o
Second impression was  :D

If you use any digital sources and have bi ampable speakers, this is a must do.

I have relatives still visiting, but in the next day or so, I will find time to see how much impact there is using two wonders for 2 channel digital sonics.

I have not tried it yet, but there are optical outs on all the Panys to daisy chain two receivers whith a source such as X box, DBS ect.

The JVC also has an optical out for anyone interested in using two in a bi amped digital application such as mentioned.
The Kenwood seems to be lacking a digital out.

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #16 on: 17 Aug 2004, 04:35 pm »
Simply awesome, Ears  :!:

Andrew JC

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #17 on: 17 Aug 2004, 05:19 pm »
Ears, First off thank you for sharing your experiences with the XR45 and other digital receivers. However I'm confused in regards as to how you are cabling your biwire setup. How do you have this set up? Are you using the digital out from one receiver to the other receivers’ digital out? Then set the source to the same thing on both receivers? Then on set of speaker cables to from each receiver to the speaker right? Thanks...andy

Grayson73

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JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #18 on: 17 Aug 2004, 09:51 pm »
Earz,

Thanks for the shootout!  Much appreciated.

ooheadsoo

JVC RX-10 vs Kenwood 7100 vs Pany 45 mini shootout.
« Reply #19 on: 17 Aug 2004, 10:06 pm »
My JVC just arrived.  It doesn't sound unacceptable, out of the box.  A good sign :)