Warning - Beck "Morning Phase" - Don't Bother With 24/96 from HDTracks

krikor · « **on:** 4 Mar 2014, 03:49 pm »

Like what I've heard from a performance standpoint streaming via Spotify through headphones, but discovered a lot of weirdness going on when deciding which version to purchase. Some details here...

http://www.audiostream.com/content/becks-imorning-phasei-2496-download-worth-it

and here...

http://www.audiostream.com/content/download-week-beck

ted_b · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 04:25 pm »

and of course the cover story from Chris here.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/569-and-winner-%85/

However, I still like the 24 bit from HDtracks pretty well, likely due to my Chord dac being very good at 24bit playback (but I could have gotten that by upsampling most likely). Yes, it's loud and compressed. The Mp3 Vinyl Experience is very nice, but a little hokey with the needle drop sound effects, etc.

Let's hope for a 5.1 version. It transformed Sea Change from a great album to a definitive surround masterpiece (i.e in the adventure category).

roscoeiii · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 05:04 pm »

A very interesting story by Chris at CA. Dynamic range and mastering trumping hi-res. Interesting food for thought.

I agree that the "vinyl" sound effects are a bit hokey. And especially odd, since the vinyl itself is superbly pressed with no pops, ticks etc at all that I have noticed on my copy.

Of course, what I think we'd all love is a 24/96 or 24/192 version of the vinyl mastering...

Russtafarian · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 05:31 pm »

Agreed. I'll buy it on vinyl and rip it to 24/96 (and 24/192 when I get my CEntrance Mixerface next month).

I heard Paul Stubblebine make an interesting comment about vinyl mastering a while back. He said the hard-compressed mastering that pop-rock artists are doing for CD and MP3 can't be cut onto a record. The master has to have a certain level of dynamic range/contrast in order to cut it without massive distortion. Does this make vinyl, with all its analog limitations, the "hi-rez" format of choice for pop/rock?

Ted, I'd love to get a 5.1 mix as well, but I'm not holding my breath. Surround mixing is not on the radar for most pop-rock artists like it was back in the Sea Change era. I really hope I'm wrong on this.

Russ

roscoeiii · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 05:44 pm »

I have long maintained that even if there is not an all-analog chain from recording to pressing (as many analog purists prefer), the mastering of an LP is often a reason to prefer it to a digital format. Looking at the dB database, again and again we often see the vinyl having a greater dynamic range. A shame that these more dynamic masterings aren't making it into HD downloads, at least as an option.

A great example of this is the most recent National album:

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=national&album=trouble

DaveBSC · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 05:57 pm »

Quote from: Russtafarian on 4 Mar 2014, 05:31 pm

I heard Paul Stubblebine make an interesting comment about vinyl mastering a while back. He said the hard-compressed mastering that pop-rock artists are doing for CD and MP3 can't be cut onto a record. The master has to have a certain level of dynamic range/contrast in order to cut it without massive distortion. Does this make vinyl, with all its analog limitations, the "hi-rez" format of choice for pop/rock?

You can definitely cut 16/44 CD masters to vinyl, less scrupulous labels do it all the time. You can also cut brickwalled, dynamically smashed masters to vinyl. What you *can't* do is cut something that is pegged at 0dBFS from beginning to end to vinyl. What cutting engineers will typically do if they are given a smashed CD master that is mostly max volume is just drop the volume. If a record is -10dB RMS with -5dB peaks, it has the same dynamic range as a CD that is -5dB RMS and peaks at 0dBFS. It's just quieter. Vinyl has certain limitations, particularly in terms of bass response and so sometimes the cutting engineer will have to tweak the EQ a bit. There is absolutely no guarantee though that a vinyl version will sound any better than a terrible CD release just because it's on vinyl.

That being said, when the engineers do actually put in the effort and create a dedicated, dynamic vinyl master, the results are usually FAR better than the CD. It has nothing to do with "analog warmth" or any other such nonsense. Most of the time the vinyl was cut from a 24/48 or 24/96 file, and the only thing analog about it is in playback. It's all in the mastering.

The usual excuses for loudness war mastering are either "it has to standout on a playlist" or "it has to sound good on terrible car stereos/laptop speakers/earbuds." You can't make playlists with vinyl, nor can you listen in your car (anymore) or on your laptop, and you REALLY wouldn't want to use Apple earbuds with a record player. There's really no excuse to make a vinyl album stupidly loud, so it usually isn't done.

ted_b · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 06:21 pm »

Great info, guys.

When you listen to truly natively recorded hirez (like Barry's Soundkeeper stuff, a favorite mine Martin Schwartz Equinox in 24/192; or Todd's MA Recordings native DSD or PCM, a favorite being Nublado in 24/96 from the first Sera Una Noche album) you recognize how well these hirez sample rates and bit rates can capture dynamic range, microdynamics, etc. It is clear that when any mastering engineer is given already smashed potatoes it's tough to even make good fries out of it, let alone a decent baked potato.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 07:00 pm »

+1 Ted.

Here's hoping that Acoustic Sounds' new hi-res venture means that the titles they offer will be mastered in a way to capture the recordings' sonic glory!

rw@cn · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 02:52 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 4 Mar 2014, 07:00 pm

+1 Ted.

Here's hoping that Acoustic Sounds' new hi-res venture means that the titles they offer will be mastered in a way to capture the recordings' sonic glory!

Other than the DSD equivalent of their SACDs, don't hold your breath

wisnon · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 03:22 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 4 Mar 2014, 04:25 pm

and of course the cover story from Chris here.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/569-and-winner-%85/

However, I still like the 24 bit from HDtracks pretty well, likely due to my Chord dac being very good at 24bit playback (but I could have gotten that by upsampling most likely). Yes, it's loud and compressed. The Mp3 Vinyl Experience is very nice, but a little hokey with the needle drop sound effects, etc.

Let's hope for a 5.1 version. It transformed Sea Change from a great album to a definitive surround masterpiece (i.e in the adventure category).

Hi Ted,

Are you going to plunge for the Hugo? Lots of positive noise around it, similar to the PW Direct Stream. I guess it would make sense to demo the both before making a judgement...both designers are going gaga over their babies.

trackball02 · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 03:32 pm »

To me, the LP sounds much better than the Vinyl Experience download that came with the record.

Its odd listening to the needle drop etc, on the Vinyl Experience digital download. Quite unique, and the sound quality is surprisingly good for MP3.

My favorite way to listen to this release is to play the vinyl record, and in the background play the digital download on JRiver with the volume off to watch the streaming pictures while in Theater View.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 03:48 pm »

Agreed trackball.

eclein · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Mar 2014, 04:23 pm »

So is my best bet right now for this to get the normal cd and wait before spending money for hdtracks or whatever?

fridays · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Mar 2014, 09:31 pm »

You never know what you are getting from HD Tracks I hope someday, they have to show/prove what they are selling is in fact what they advertise

jMelvin · « **Reply #14 on:** 8 Mar 2014, 12:43 am »

Quote from: eclein on 7 Mar 2014, 04:23 pm

So is my best bet right now for this to get the normal cd and wait before spending money for hdtracks or whatever?

That's exactly what I decided to do. The CD sounds good but more important is the music .. love it.

eclein · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Mar 2014, 09:18 am »

Thanks....I got a Fiio X3 DAP and everything sounds great to me from it not just the hi-rez stuff so I'll grab the CD and get it on there.....thanks guys!!

Nick77 · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Mar 2014, 11:28 am »

Was looking to hear samples, cant find it on HD Tracks, did they remove it?

Edit: Okay weird, cant search it but found it under best seller.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Mar 2014, 03:53 pm »

Some additional details provided to Analog Planet:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/stop-nonsense-bob-ludwig-true-numbers-behind-becks-imorning-phasei-album

firedog · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Mar 2014, 09:04 am »

In short, the Analog Planet link says the album absolutely was mastered at 24/96 (although some individual tracks may not have been recorded in hi-res), and that the resulting sound is EXACTLY as Beck intended it.... Whether audiophiles like it or not.

raysracing · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Mar 2014, 12:18 pm »

I also DL both a HD and standard 16/44 of two different Gregory Porter albums from HD Music and was pretty disappointed by the 24/96 and happy with the 16/44. The 24/96 just sounded compressed and lacking in detail and life. Was that the way it hit the mic or did I pay out the butt for nothing special?