[DavidS]

and he said something like for a low to medium priced table the cost of the cartridge should be approximately equal to the cost of the table and arm.  So my WTA cost about $3500 (with DPS) - my Denon 103r is not really in that ballpark.  His argument is the larger part of the sound quality with turntables comes from the cartridge.  The comment got me thinking....

[SteveFord]

Is he buying?  I would like an Ortofon MC in black, please.

[pumpkinman]

and he said something like for a low to medium priced table the cost of the cartridge should be approximately equal to the cost of the table and arm.  So my WTA cost about $3500 (with DPS) - my Denon 103r is not really in that ballpark.  His argument is the larger part of the sound quality with turntables comes from the cartridge.  The comment got me thinking....

The Denon 103 R is a very nice cartridge.  Are you unhappy with the sound
or is it just time for a change ?? Don't let that article sway you unless your
really unhappy with the sound.

[Toaster]

Not my experience with turntables arms and cartridges over the last 35 years at all. Far better to get the best turntable and arm- in that order- and put a decent cartridge on it, just as you have. Mr. Fremer may simply be working on a baseline of extremely expensive cartridges and turntables. My friend has a very good deck with a modified DL103R- Expert Stylus (UK) cantilever and stylus and a 'Midas' metal body. It sounds superb. I suggest you contact Expert or perhaps Soundsmith in the USA.

[sts9fan]

I totally agree with him. I have used a BM Glider on a Rega P1 and now use a Ortofon 2M Black on a P3-24.

[DavidS]

I love my 103r on the WTA ... but not the point of my posting and what I was thinking about after reading the blog.  Was more a big picture philosophy / experience question.  There is almost a common sense point for me that you would invest your money where you could get the most benefit in terms of sound.  I certainly believe in spending on speakers this way.  Does it make sense to have an expensive turntable and then have a budget cartridge?  Or vice versa spend a bunch on a cartridge but then mount it on a budget turntable?  Seems like most here experience is the first.

[threadkiller]

Good one to ponder... Yet first off, your $3500 table will musically outperform most tables upwards of $20k.  (Not the finish or fit mind you, just the music)
Second, for many lower priced tables out there, doesn't matter how much you spend on a cartridge, the table has already held everything back. Just within our own family of tables, with the Simplex I wouldn't go higher than say a Dynavector 20, yet with an Amadeus the checkbook is the limiting factor.
In the old days, my friends would go with a Rega p3 and decent cartridge under a grand. If they wanted better sound they'd upgrade tables. Still holds true today...
Cheers!

[threadkiller]

Yes, David, table first... always...

[Charisma12]

The current WTL turntables can accommodate very high end cartridges without shame.  The Dynavector XV-1S is a good example.

[roscoeiii]

Good one to ponder... Just within our own family of tables, with the Simplex I wouldn't go higher than say a Dynavector 20, yet with an Amadeus the checkbook is the limiting factor.

Cheers!

Threadkiller, have you heard the Simplex? My understanding was that the sound was quite close to the WTA. Which makes your comments about the Dyna 20 for Simplex but sky's the limit for the WTA a head-scratcher.  :scratch:

[rob400]

I've heard it Roscoe up against an Amadeus and Versalex. My guess is that Charlie will agree with me that the Simplex is very good but sonically inferior to its bigger brothers. I will speculate that an Amadeus with XX2 mk2 will outperform a Simplex with XV1s. I haven't done the dem though....

[threadkiller]

Hi Rob,
You are on the money...the Simplex is good, yet as stated many times it pales to the Amadeus etc..due to arm/platter size. It's not very close. So yes, better table, then buy a better cartridge. Dynavector 1t, anyone? 

[rob400]

Hi Charlie.
Thanks for your recent advise. I've just picked up a S/H L300/P300 off ebay from a reputable Aussie seller for $2500 USD to include postage and UK import duty. He'd tried to sell it on Audiogon and in Oz unsuccessfully. Fortunately the voltage over there is the same as in the UK. It's definitely still a buyers market hifi wise. As long as the pre checks out ok I will be ordering an XV1s when I get back to the UK. I will report back.

[threadkiller]

Excellent to hear!  The XV1s will be the cherry on top...

[BobM]

I think any reasonably decent turntable can accommodate a good cartridge without much shame. I believe the larger issue is about the phono stage. You just will not get everything out of a good cartridge unless your phono stage is up to it.

[gagamut]

in my less experience ,i think Turntable,tonearm, phono and setting turntable is more important than cartridge,and phono cable is also very very important i find.

[roscoeiii]

The exact quote, which has some important caveats (which I have italicized):

"Since the transducer is likely to contribute most to the final sound, assuming the tonearm in question can properly handle it, I'd put as much as possible into the cartridge just as I would into the speakers assuming the amplifier can do the job."

He is taking a fairly common position in audio that the transducers, the devices transforming mechanical energy into electricity, or electricity back into mechanical energy are the most important items in a signal chain. So cartridges on one end (groove--> electrical signal) and speakers on the other (electricity--> sound waves). Of course, how a signal is handled along the way is important. But this is less crucial to the overall sound, unless there is a mismatch somewhere along the chain.

Now with turntables, of course the transducer (cartridge) needs help from the arm, turntable isolation, etc.

As a side note, the disproportionate importance of transducers is why I am always surprised to find folks asking about speakers to match a particular amp. Speakers first, then get figure out the amp IMHO.

[threadkiller]

Rosco, agreed. Yet what if one has an amp their married to for a particular reason, looks, features, etc. Then I could see where one would drag it everywhere trying to match it to the right speaker. Although then you'd have to worry about speaker and room.  It's not easy.
Whereas with a table, one should go for the best one can afford and then go from there. And not the other way round...

[roscoeiii]

Yes, a cart without a sufficient TT and arm to support it is quite tragic.

[threadkiller]

I'll have to borrow that! Thanks !