[jtwrace]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1132758406/heatworks-model-1-your-next-water-heater

[JLM]

Looks good, but... 

1. Not yet available;
2. Limited output (with our cold water temperature of 55 degrees and typical hot water temperatures used around 120 degrees, the flow would be around 1.4 gpm).

Overseas you can find more point of use water heaters (some that even fit into the faucet/showerhead but can cause electrical shocks).

Wish when I built 9 years ago it would have been with PEX and prepped for point of use water heaters.   

[newzooreview]

Looks good, but... 

1. Not yet available;

You're complaining that something on Kickstarter is not currently available? I don't think you understand Kickstarter. 

2. Limited output (with our cold water temperature of 55 degrees and typical hot water temperatures used around 120 degrees, the flow would be around 1.4 gpm).

You may have missed it towards the end of the exhaustive technical and applications information, but they can be run in series, so if you have cold incoming water you can run the output of one into the input of another. They are highly efficient, so you don't lose much energy at all by doing this--it just keeps flow rate up to 2 gpm on very cold days.

You can also place them after a tank water heater to significantly extend usable hot water, or better yet put one after a solar hot water system.

They will work on 120/15 amp circuits but won't give you a hot shower from cold water unless they are on a 220/48 amp circuit. So, dedicated power for these is essentially a must. That's true of most high current electrical appliances like stoves (or other electric water heaters) however.

[Scott F.]

Pretty cool.

I'm really surprised that induction water heaters haven't hit the market yet. I see the Chinese have jumped on the technology and have several models available, but nothing on the domestic market yet. Induction heating is a solid, proven technology and would be really easy to adapt into a domestic water heater. When it comes to heating efficiency of a induction water heater, well, that would require math but as first glance I'd bet it would outperform traditional electric resistance used in my water heater now, plus, no scaling.

[genjamon]

I thought resistance electric water heating was 100% efficient, but it was just the reliability, scaling, and consistency issues that were the detractors.  AFAIK, the energy transfer between electricity to heat is 100% efficient - it's just the matter of getting that heat where it needs to go for a consistent end product. 

So, I'm a bit worried about using one of these things, especially if more than one are required, in the peak of summer with AC running full blast, and doing laundry with dryer and a load in the washer.  Seems like electrical demands could be the limiting factor here, especially if you need more than one unit.

On the other hand, it's very cool you could just tack one on to your existing water heater to buffer to the right temp.  I'm thinking I could just add one to mine, then turn the hot water heater temp down to just serve as a pre-heater of sorts, and this unit could then vary its heating and buffer it out for a more consistent temp service to the house.  Then down the line I could install passive solar hot water and good to go with this unit.  The flexibility of design is really the cool part, in my opinion.

[goskers]

I would be interested but I have geothermal with a desuperheater feeding a buffer tank.

[rif]

This sounds interesting but I have a few concerns, in no particular order:

1) in NJ, I believe only a licensed plumber can install water heaters. How many would be willing to do this?

2) when something goes wrong, who will provide parts and service it? Will these folks be around in 5 or 10 years?

3) does it cost less to run than an efficient natural gas heater?

4) if it's really that much better, the established companies will come out with models soon.

[Bizarroterl]

When I read "The most energy & water efficient" in the 1st line (knowing that ALL electric tankless are 100% on both) I make sure I have my wallet and back away slowly.   

[macrojack]

I will confess to not knowing anything much about Kickstarter. I do know the general reason for its existence but I don't know to what extent a product has to actually exist. Is there even a working model of this water heater? What I see in this ad is a solicitation for startup funds, rather than a product offering. Without a selling price being suggested, I can't make even a sound guess as to its market viability. And without that I wouldn't feel capable of betting on their success.

My house is equipped with a Rinnai Continuum 2520 gas fired on demand water heater. I would urge anyone who wishes to change from a tank unit to tankless to consider this brand. The advantages are numerous and it is widely held to be the best available, although TAS and Stereophile have both failed to publish a review yet.

Scaling is an issue with on demand units if your water is at all hard. We have a whole house water filter (not softener) which mitigates this tendency but does not eliminate it altogether. Your plumber will advise you to have him flush your lines with white vinegar and replace the filter at regular intervals, ranging from 1 to 3 years depending on the ph of your water. Expect to pay about $100 for that service. It looks like it could be a DIY if you had certain equipment and had seen it done once.

[newzooreview]

When I read "The most energy & water efficient" in the 1st line (knowing that ALL electric tankless are 100% on both) I make sure I have my wallet and back away slowly.   

Maybe you should read more carefully. The text says "The most energy & water efficient, reliable & versatile water heater available."

They are claiming that the device has the greatest combined excellence across four categories: energy efficiency, water efficiency, reliability, and versatility. So if you compare to another model of on-demand electrical heater (already water and energy efficient) they claim better reliability and versatility. If you compare to a gas tank water heater, they likely better it on all counts.

What gives me pause is not the detailed description of the design on Kickstarter but your statement that "ALL electric tankless are 100% on both". 100%? Nothing is 100% efficient.

[newzooreview]

…but I don't know to what extent a product has to actually exist. Is there even a working model of this water heater?

The video and the description indicate that they have two pre-production prototypes that they have been using for testing and development. They are looking for the funds to move to the production phase.

What I see in this ad is a solicitation for startup funds, rather than a product offering.

They have listed technical specifications, design and performance parameters, and a production schedule. Apparently you want Kickstarter to be Amazon.com, which is clueless.

Without a selling price being suggested, I can't make even a sound guess as to its market viability. And without that I wouldn't feel capable of betting on their success.

Apparently you would rather pontificate and run your mouth than read. The "projected retail price is $395." And they are not asking for anyone to bet on their market viability: you are buying one of the first production run devices. Or two--it depends on how much you donate.

I am very surprised at your aggressively negative, willfully ignorant comments. This company is proceeding with significantly more transparency than many manufacturers on Audiocircle. You can find plenty of industry participants here that offer pre-sales at a discount on final selling price of audio equipment that is not yet in production, and they don't give a concrete timeline for delivery, the amount of technical detail that this company has, or demonstration of functioning prototypes.

I have no interest in a new water heater or any knowledge of this company beyond what I read on Kickstarter today, but they certainly don't deserve the disparagement.

[bacobits1]

We checked into these Tankless Water heater all of them a few years ago. My wife was interested in it.
Read Consumer Reports and got turned off for the $$ involved just to hook it up.
It requires a larger whole new gas line to be installed internally which isn't a problem except for the stupid money they get you hooked into doing it. I think the whole install plus extended warranty  was over $3K. On a $6-700 Rinnai unit.
Ummm I don't think so!
Best to do it when building new. If at all.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm

[DaveC113]

I would not go for electric heat in general, as the production of electricity is only 30% or so efficient. Burning gas on the spot for heat is much more efficient and generally costs a lot less.

Also, as has been mentioned, the claim of greater efficiency is not true.

[genjamon]

Not only is electric production really inefficient, but there are very substantial losses through transmission lines - in the neighborhood of 50%.  You could go direct and install a solar PV system at your home and then use hot water when the sun is shining, but at max demand of 11.5KW, that's a pretty large array just to power one of these things, much less the rest of your house.  To me, the instantaneous power demand is the real kicker.

[thunderbrick]

I have no interest in a new water heater or any knowledge of this company beyond what I read on Kickstarter today, but they certainly don't deserve the disparagement.

I don't think it's disparagement at all.  Looks to me like reasonable skepticism based on experience.  I've got some experience with solar PV and solar heat, but I've seen waaaaay too many idealistic start-ups by good people who let their enthusiasm override good sense, not to mention engineering.  This happened back in the Carter years with the first push for solar energy, and again in the past decade.

Nothing is a perfect solution.  Nothing.  Each has its pros and cons.  Healthy skepticism is a good thing, AFAIK.

[JLM]

Our house has 7 sinks, 3 shower/tubs, dishwasher, and washing machine spread all over the house so I might need 3 or 4 centralized units or 6 de-centralized (if I re-plumb the house).  That's a big draw at what I read of 45 amps each.  And without locating the heaters near the fixture/appliance you'll still have a wait time and associated heat/water waste as the heated water travels.

We did look at on-demand water heaters, but it would have taken two gas and more electrics (in a central location) which amounted to about $3,000 which made the geothermal system option mentioned above much more attractive, especially if you factor in the need for soft water.

But for a remote mud room or small cottage I can see potential.

As far as gas versus electric goes, yes electrical transmission losses are over 60% and the utility has to produce projected peaks (large coal/oil plants don't start/stop easily/quickly) whether the demand is there or not so overall efficiency is below 20% (without considering losses within the plant).  On the other hand gas doesn't get to you energy free and pollutes more than a power plant (which are heavily regulated).  The most efficient option based on current technology is point of use PV/fuel cell/hydrogen storage systems but the fuel cells are still expensive.  Excess solar power is used to distill hydrogen from water which is stored in propane tanks and run back through another fuel cell to make electricity when needed.  The system can be sized to also produce enough extra hydrogen to power your car(s).  Imagine a world where the only power/communication lines run between cities and power stations/communication hubs.

[PRELUDE]

After all these years, I think there are two major problems when the word saving and most efficient comes on the paper. The first is the media and wrong consumer report and the second is some people have way more expectation.
I thought I should share this with you guys but before anything I should say this that rabbit does not come easy and if something works for me, it does not mean that it would work for everybody and please do not pay any attention to that 100% efficient  BS because nothing will ever be 100%. For God's  sake take a look at your speakers, are they efficient? most likely not and probably your 50 years old furnace is more efficient then your speakers. You might consider a nice active system for yourself to beat hell on your 50 years old furnace efficiency but it still won't be 100%. I wish it would.
Any way one year ago I decided to go tankless but not for saving at all but for space. I needed two for my two story house and by taking out two 50 gallon water heater I was gaining a lot of space. After some research by my own not to read stuff on line which most of them are wrong or the reviews. I went with 180,000 BTU JACUZZI and it was a little more then one year ago.
Now this is what happened.
My gas bill went down from $25 to $12 during the summer time when furnace is off and I do not have AC. Just the tankless water heater and the range for cooking and if I do less cooking, I even paid from $6 to $8.
This unit was designed to work with 5 faucets and I had to try it myself to make sure that was true. So one day I opened all the faucets, kitchen, bathroom basement and the washer machine and I jumped in the shower so we got 5 faucets. I took a nice hot bath and when I came out the shower all the faucets were shooting out hot water at 120 degree with no problem.
Now since I got this installed, I never used my power washer any more because I connect the hot water faucet in the basement to the garden hose and bring it out from the vent on glass block window and wash the car, driveway, siding or however and when you shot the water off the whole system is off.
I never had any problem that water goes cold or you have to wait for it to get hot.
The parts are not expensive to replace( I did search it before buy) and you can control the heat from 90 to 180 degree. You only need to make 1 5" hole for went. The vent is two layer. The center one which is made out of aluminum is your vent and outer layer is PVC which is your cold air intake for combustion.
I paid $1000 for each including the vent pipe and the valves.
Now with the benefits that this unit has I am wondering that why even the hot water tanks are still around.
And lastly, three people were involved for this installation. Me, Myself and I.



 

       

[Chromisdesigns]

I am surprised nobody else has commented on the actual technology -- unless I badly misread their kickstarter materials, this is essentially a high(er) tech equivalent of what we used to call a "stinger"...a couple of electrodes immersed in water with current flowing, which of course does heat the water...BUT...

I can't conceive how  in the world they are ever going to get code approval anywhere for a device that electrifies the water directly!  Monitoring circuitry notwithstanding, aren't there going to be possible failure modes that result in someone getting shocked?  Even worse with multiple devices installed in the same house.  And installing unapproved water heaters is just plain dumb!

Back in the day when I lived aboard and messed around with boats, there were plenty of problems with galvanic corrosion and stray currents due to improper or unmaintained shore power wiring as well as poorly thought out designs, up to and including electric fields in the water strong enough to cause death.

Or am I just having a senior moment, or particularly poor reading comprehension day?

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Unless he did not tell us everything, which it is his right,
if the PCB fail, then I guess you will be welcome by the funeral parlor
with your two feet first.
I agree, this look potentially dangerous and UL
and/or CSA won't approve it the way it is.
I've bein an industrial combustion designer and technician for 25 years
and I know that any electrical approval agency will not approve something that only rely on one PCB for safety.
Well, time will tell what will happen with this good,
but potentially dangerous idea.
Here in Vitnam we have lots of instant water headters
and in 18 years I never heard of any little Vietnamese electrocuted,
it does not mean it never happened, maybe God (In this case it's Boudha)
protect them.
I never open any of those instant water heaters,
therefore I cannot share with you how it's made inside
and if it's safe.
 
Guy 13

[JLM]

After all these years, I think there are two major problems when the word saving and most efficient comes on the paper. The first is the media and wrong consumer report and the second is some people have way more expectation.
I thought I should share this with you guys but before anything I should say this that rabbit does not come easy and if something works for me, it does not mean that it would work for everybody and please do not pay any attention to that 100% efficient  BS because nothing will ever be 100%. For God's  sake take a look at your speakers, are they efficient? most likely not and probably your 50 years old furnace is more efficient then your speakers. You might consider a nice active system for yourself to beat hell on your 50 years old furnace efficiency but it still won't be 100%. I wish it would.
Any way one year ago I decided to go tankless but not for saving at all but for space. I needed two for my two story house and by taking out two 50 gallon water heater I was gaining a lot of space. After some research by my own not to read stuff on line which most of them are wrong or the reviews. I went with 180,000 BTU JACUZZI and it was a little more then one year ago.
Now this is what happened.
My gas bill went down from $25 to $12 during the summer time when furnace is off and I do not have AC. Just the tankless water heater and the range for cooking and if I do less cooking, I even paid from $6 to $8.
This unit was designed to work with 5 faucets and I had to try it myself to make sure that was true. So one day I opened all the faucets, kitchen, bathroom basement and the washer machine and I jumped in the shower so we got 5 faucets. I took a nice hot bath and when I came out the shower all the faucets were shooting out hot water at 120 degree with no problem.
Now since I got this installed, I never used my power washer any more because I connect the hot water faucet in the basement to the garden hose and bring it out from the vent on glass block window and wash the car, driveway, siding or however and when you shot the water off the whole system is off.
I never had any problem that water goes cold or you have to wait for it to get hot.
The parts are not expensive to replace( I did search it before buy) and you can control the heat from 90 to 180 degree. You only need to make 1 5" hole for went. The vent is two layer. The center one which is made out of aluminum is your vent and outer layer is PVC which is your cold air intake for combustion.
I paid $1000 for each including the vent pipe and the valves.
Now with the benefits that this unit has I am wondering that why even the hot water tanks are still around.
And lastly, three people were involved for this installation. Me, Myself and I.
     

Good post, nice installation.  Like many things (start with metric) we Americans are the odd balls.  Most of the world knows us but we don't know them (had that reinforced when we hosted an exchange student 2 years ago).  On-demand water heaters is just another good example.  Some things we continue to do very well (pop culture, jazz, computer design) but some things we haven't had the need to change that the rest of the world has (like cheap cars, environmental controls, or in this case cheap energy).  Cheap energy allows us to waste it on hot water tanks while the rest of the world went on-demand a long time ago.