[Diamond Dog]

Oh DD, don't forget, Pat Metheny recorded 'This Is Not America' with Bowie....just thought I'd poke at you a little 

David Bowie also did a duet with Bing Crosby. Pat Metheny might have some mouth/brain disconnect issues but B-B-B-Bing was a whole other story...

The comment about wrapping a guitar around Kenny's head was a joke. It wasn't an actual threat. Again, without the proper context, these snippets of conversation get badly distorted. In our copy and paste world, it's getting to the point that these people are going to have to refrain from discussing anything with anyone. Now, that's truly sad.

Nah.  A whole bunch of people here have been discussing this topic for a while now and with considerable vigour in places. No one has threatened physical harm to anyone else. It's as though we were...I dunno...civilized. So why so sad?
As to the actual Metheny comment being taken out of context, I would say the link you offered up gave a busload of context, unedited and unchallenged. All Pat all the time. He said plenty. And he didn't come across as though he was just joshin' and really wanted to give Kenny G a big smooch and take him dancin'. Besides, the "Just Kiddin'" defense ?  Really ? So once again...nah. No sale.

It is possible to be a talented musician and a jerk. Or worse. Lots of precedent from all genres. Lots of precedent...Just ask Bing's kids. The ones who didn't kill themselves, that is.

D.D.



 

[kevin360]

D.D., I'm not sure how to say this because I've always considered you among the most rational members of this (or any) forum (an honest compliment). I never implied that Pat was just joshin' about his dislike of Kenny G, either on a personal or a professional level (I'm not selling something that smells that rotten) . Pat's critique of Kenny's inabilities is dead serious (as a sax player, I agree with Pat's assessments). There is no question that Pat meant what he said about Mr G, except for the idea of going El Kabong on him. That was a joke, but part of it was a little too 'inside' for a general audience - Pat actually cites El Kabong as an early influence attracting him to the guitar (by and large, cartoons were my introduction to music - how about you?).

I followed all of this as it happened over a decade ago. I read much more of Pat's comments at the time this was happening and even exchanged words with him about it. I can assure you that he was, in fact, joking about getting physical with Kenny. That, quite simply, is not in Pat's nature. He is, however, very passionate about music and he has a deep respect for its roots. Louis Armstrong (among many others) deserves to be honored (perhaps, more so because he (among countless others of his race) was so dishonored in many ways during his life) and Pat considered what Kenny did to be an unconscionable act of desecration by a member of his trade. It's definitely no joke that it rubbed Pat the wrong way - of course he didn't want to give Kenny a big smooch and take him dancin'. Nobody is suggesting otherwise.

The link I provided for context is actually yet another example of a discussion taken out of context. The context in this case was the great amount of misinformation surrounding the reasons for the statements Pat made about Kenny - 'Pat's just jealous of Kenny's commercial success' was repeated ad nauseam. I'm sure you noticed how many times in this thread that very notion was forwarded. How would that make you feel? How does one respond to such an accusation? How does one prove that it is nonsense? One way is to illuminate all of the reasons why such an idea is utterly ridiculous. So, Pat started that discussion with seven paragraphs about what a lousy musician Kenny is. Frankly, I think Pat was justified. He certainly justified (at least, qualified) his statement that Kenny G sucked (I'm glad he never heard me ). Were I in the same position, I think I would have responded in much the same way - I guess I'm a douche too (I've always known I was 'something' I didn't want to be).

Yes, I'm quite aware that I am speaking from a biased position. I confess that I am a Pat Metheny fan. Still, I consider myself at least as rational as I consider you. (Of course, 96% of Americans think they are above average.)

Why so sad? Well, I never said that I was sad (and, maybe, neither did you). I said that it would be sad (slightly different meaning - substitute 'truly unfortunate') if public figures decided that they could no longer say anything substantive in an interview/whatever (you know; think about Tori Amos talking about shoes) for fear that it would be excerpted and presented out of context (like the media does so effectively). I guess it's nothing new (look what was made of Lennon's reference to the popularity of (obsession with) the Beatles), except that it can now be done by the hoi polloi.

[dB Cooper]

This is actually becoming a very interesting thread. I just thought of something along these lines: an interview with Frank Zappa where he criticizes John Lennon even more "snarkily" (this is FZ, after all) and in his version at least, sounds like he has a genuine beef over Lennon ripping him off by releasing (without permission) a tape he gave Lennon of them jamming at the 1971 Fillmore East concerts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1cx-Q88cxw

[charmerci]

While it certainly wasn't the nicest thing to be said by Pat and I, too am sure that he would never actually physically assault KG.


Not a fan of anything by Mr. G., I'm pretty positive he couldn't keep up as this is certainly a performance like no other -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFXhkGIsL54

[kevin360]

...in his version at least, sounds like he has a genuine beef over Lennon ripping him off by releasing (without permission) a tape he gave Lennon of them jamming at the 1971 Fillmore East concerts.

There really aren't versions; it's just a fact.  Anyone who has ever heard 'King Kong' will recognize it instantly. Judge for yourself. Have a look at the credits on 'Some Time in New York City'. The Flo and Eddie years definitely weren't my favorites, but Frank speaks the truth (as usual). Skip forward to the 1:40 mark and you'll hear the band break into 'King Kong'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T039BO8Q_88

Not a fan of anything by Mr. G., I'm pretty positive he couldn't keep up as this is certainly a performance like no other.

Actually, there have been thousands of performances like that (by Pat & company). It is nice to see that old Gibson ES 175D. Pat stopped touring with it quite a few years ago. He uses an Ibanez copy these days (for good reasons).

[Diamond Dog]

D.D., I'm not sure how to say this because I've always considered you among the most rational members of this (or any) forum

Now that's just crazy-talk...

...by and large, cartoons were my introduction to music - how about you?

A combination of hard country music on AM radio in my father's half-ton and Burl Ives Live At The Royal Albert Hall. The Blue Tail Fly is going through my head as I type this. Help.

But seriously, friend, you have mounted a powerful and informed defense of an artist whom you obviously feel a strong connection to. Your passion is both admirable and enviable. And if I might say it, thoroughly non-douchey.

Musicians have always tended to break bad and disrespect each other. From Mozart vs. Salieri to Tupac vs. Biggy to dflee vs. his local players to Morrisey vs. everybody. It appears to be the nature of the beast. If nothing else, their petty spats provide some amusement and water-cooler conversation for the likes of us. But it ain't ever gonna stop.
The most productive outcome we can hope for from this thread is that we have caused a bunch of people to Google "El Kabong". 




D.D.

[BobM]

This is actually becoming a very interesting thread. I just thought of something along these lines: an interview with Frank Zappa where he criticizes John Lennon even more "snarkily" (this is FZ, after all) and in his version at least, sounds like he has a genuine beef over Lennon ripping him off by releasing (without permission) a tape he gave Lennon of them jamming at the 1971 Fillmore East concerts:

It was never a good idea to piss off Frank Zappa when he was alive, or he would make fun of you in the most degrading way in a song.
 

[Diamond Dog]

It was never a good idea to piss off Frank Zappa when he was alive, or he would make fun of you in the most degrading way in a song.
 

Bobby Brown must've pissed Frank off something fierce... 

D.D.

[ArthurDent]

The most productive outcome we can hope for from this thread is that we have caused a bunch of people to Google "El Kabong". 




D.D.

Of course that was just his alter ego. His real identity was Quick Draw McGraw, and his faithful side kick was Baba Looey.   

[woodsyi]

Click me!

[WGH]

Thanks a lot woodsyi, that song will be stuck in my brain for the rest of the day.

[charmerci]

Speaking of nasty songs Lennon's diatribe against Paul, How Do You Sleep? is certainly one of the most direct knife-stabbing songs I've ever heard.


On a lighter note - El Kabong and Quick Draw McGraw!    I had singles from both of them as a kid.

[dB Cooper]

Quick DrawMcGraw and his sidekick Baba Booey! 

[dB Cooper]

Thanks a lot woodsyi, that song will be stuck in my brain for the rest of the day.

I wisely decided not to click on any link that starts off from a picture of Kenny G.

[kevin360]

D.D., It's funny how you deflected the compliment, then demonstrated its fidelity. This is the first time I can recall being positioned on the opposite side of the table from you. If I mounted a solid defense, it was because you 'forced' me to do so – in a most pleasant way. Your earlier comment about civility is appropriate to this entire discussion. On that note, I must agree with you in finding the acrimony between various musicians tedious, at best. It doesn't exactly reveal the best human behaviors, but some ire is justifiable.

If I may offer one more bit of context, Pat also had a hard time with the fact that he seemed alone in finding 'that deed' heinous. The more apathetic he sensed his peers were, the more duty he felt to shake them. The most original song one can pen today is still quite derivative, but a recording is sacred. If Kenny had simply covered the song, however poorly Pat may have judged it, he would have found no reason to cry, “Foul!” That no chorus issued that cry when he crossed the line served to invigorate Pat's solo.

In truth, I hate to witness musicians talking like politicians (I detest the manner in which politicians joust). Even when, as in this case, I see the justification, I find it discomforting. Even worse, it diverts energy which I'd prefer the artist apply to his craft – shut up and play yer guitar, indeed.

---

If this discussion is going to veer into a consideration of the bitterness between other musicians, the champion might be Fleetwood Mac – probably wasn't much fun for Mick, but it did fuel some song writing.

Frank was a brilliant social commentator. Little escaped his notice. If the spark of this thread occurred a decade (or so) earlier, Pat may have found accompaniment in the form of a Zappa song. Somehow, however, Frank would do it humorously. Who doesn't have a little chuckle over songs like 'Why Don't You Like Me?'?

BTW, there's no accounting for taste. I have some of that 'Yawni' material in my catalog and I think some of it is quite good (though, I can't tolerate the cheesy synth stuff). I must even confess owning a Kenny G CD, but my wife made me get it – it was released in '89. I can't remember the last time anyone listened to it. If I haven't yet destroyed what little credibility I ever had, I even have some John Tesh – 'One World' ain't bad.

Jazz comes in lots of flavors and I see no reason not to classify either Kenny G or Pat Metheny as jazz performers. Heck, even Keiko Matsui falls in that category. Should I bow my head in shame for liking her too? Maybe, I should stop right here.

[FullRangeMan]

I wisely decided not to click on any link that starts off from a picture of Kenny G.

Too late for me. Bolton are a great drummer, his voice are awful.

[jimdgoulding]

Is It just me or does Miles look like he'd rather be someplace else.  Pictured are a great jazz composer, bandleader and improviser, and a pretender.  I'm a longtime jazz purist and protector.  Being a snob may just come with the territory for me.  I just can't give Kenny G a lick of respect.  His music, that is. 

[Diamond Dog]

Is It just me or does Miles look like he'd rather be someplace else.  Pictured are a great jazz composer, bandleader and improviser, and an amateur.  I'm a longtime jazz purist and protector.  Being a snob may just come with the territory for me.  I just can't give Kenny G a lick of respect.  His music, that is. 

He always looked that way. Often he was someplace else...for a variety of reasons.
The irony of that particular photo and sentiment is not lost on me as Miles took his share of heat from "Jazz" aficionados who felt he wasn't all that good a player or that he was a threat to the integrity of "Jazz" because he wasn't "Jazz" enough. Hack. Heretic. Despoiler. Sound familiar?
It's a funny ol' world, innit?

D.D.

[jimdgoulding]

I just noticed that they do have nearly matching hairdo's.

[Diamond Dog]

We can always find common ground if we try. 

D.D.