[Delacroix]

Well it's taken some time but my upgraded 5s, from SE to Anni II level, are finally back in my listening room. I shipped them off in early Septermber and they arrived back in December weighing quite a bit more! Suffice to say, when the shipper delivered them, he looked at me in disbelief as he tried to move them from truck to my back door. As he put it "These things weight nearly 500lbs...and they're just speakers?". When I confirmed that they were indeed a pair of speakers, he followed up incredulously "you mean just for listening to music?" You should have seen his face, am sure he was going to be telling his colleagues about that delivery for some time. However, his reaction was to be expected,  you should have seen my face as I tried to wrestle these into the house. Talk about hernia-inducing! I broke my one and only hand cart trying to get a single crate over the threshold, and it was rated for heavy use. Note to self: next time recruit a friend.

Of course, once in the house I could hardly leave the crates sitting there so I had to unpack. Thankfully, once the screws were removed and the crates were on their sides, the speakers could be slid out and manouvered into the listening room.  Whatever Albert and co are putting into the upgraded cabinets they are getting close to being heavier than one person can handle alone.

The fun is really only beginning now as I have them set up for listening. More to come on this but while auditory memory is very limited, the upgrade appears to my ears to be obvious, with bass in particular having taken on a whole new level of authority that is remarkable. So -- long wait, sore muscles, lighter wallet, but really pleasing results thus far. Am playing around with placement a little, the MasterSet approach has me most intrigued and I have motivation enough to try it now rather than default to the previous location but it's all good fun. Much tweaking to do in the weeks ahead but am glad I bit the bullet on the upgrade. Stay tuned.

[jab]

Way to go P!  Enjoy the journey!!  Let us know of the evo!  Jack

[htradtk]

Patrick,

Congrats on your Anni II upgrade, when I got mine back the first thing I noticed was the bass, over time they will open up even more. Was well worth the upgrade! Enjoy!

Henry

[Delacroix]

I’ve been silent on this for weeks as I am still trying to determine what I am hearing.  It’s so hard to get a firm handle on the change due to the upgrade. The bass is just so much more extended it’s as if the physical size of the speaker has changed, even though it’s the same enclosures. This is an obvious improvement you hear from day one but the changes are more than in the lower frequencies. Dynamics are off the chart. I put on some familiar rock and the sudden explosion of sound is startling.  And I mean startling on more than one album.

I’d like to say everything has changed but in other ways these still sound like the Vons I know and loved before sending them in for the upgrade. Also crucially, I am not sure I want to replicate the location of the speakers to their pre-upgrade positions. I loosely tried the Masterset method and found that remarkably, the speakers sound great pretty close to the wall behind them and I get a soundstage here that is no less deep than if I move them six feet out to their former location. I was sort of satisfied enough with this that I’ve left them there for a couple of months but I want to try the same method starting with the other speaker (for those who have not read up on it --it’s described in our sticky thread on positioning -- this method involves moving both speakers  back to the wall, before moving one out on its own to determine its position based on certain bass characteristics before  moving the other out to blend). I want to know if it matters whether I start with the left or the right speaker since my room has some differences on either side.

Another factor is spacing. I know the Vons are able to work well even if spaced far out but I stuck to a basic isosceles triangle with listening axis further back than the speaker spread. I read somewhere (Jim Smith’s Better Sound?) that most speakers in his experience sound best at some fixed proportion of width to length of listening position so that started me playing with the width of separation. I currently have the speakers farther apart and nearer to the walls than I ever had before and I am liking what I hear. No loss of centre image, soundstage depth still credible, etc. All of which has me thinking that I still have not figured out the ideal set up, and I wonder if the upgrades are even fully settled in yet -- Albert warned me these would require some hours.

So, was the upgrade worth it -- I think so but I suspect they are still changing and I’ve not found the ideal position yet. All good fun since the music sounds fine but like everyone here, I want to make sure I’ve explored all options…..phew….

[es347]

Hey Patrick....very cool..way to go.  The upgrade consisted of internal wiring and the triple wall construction correct?  Albert says I have the Mk 1.5...triple wall but internal wiring is still Analysis Plus.  Were there changes to the crossover?

[Delacroix]

As Albert explained to me, there were four basic changes (from memory):

1) The triple wall cabinet lining
2) Changes in crossover parts
3) New midrange driver
4) Delphi wire (and lots of it).

Certainly one can see the driver change, and the weight increase leaves me in no doubt that the cabinet changed (but I suppose they could have installed rocks!). It's like a new speaker in familiar clothes, so to speak.  They are no so heavy I will never attempt to box them up on my own again....so I guess I'm stuck with them for life unless I can sell to pair of weightlifters.

[JackD201]

Hey Patrick, two months in. How are things going with the Annies?

[Delacroix]

Jack, it's good but a bit frustrating since I have had several components in for review over the last few months so there's been lots of things changing in my system. As a result, I have probably not given the upgrades all the attention I might have otherwise.

I have left them in their original 'first Masterset' position mentioned below and they sound great but I do want to revisit this in the coming month, not least starting with the other speaker fixed first to see if there is any effect. All that said,  I confess I've grown used to seeing the speakers located closer to the walls than before the upgrade and am enjoying the results. I suppose this says it all really -- I spend more time fussing with my tonearm and cartridge than I ever do now with the speakers - they just deliver the goods. Everytime I change something in or out of the system, I am always pleased when I go back to the Vons. But fussing is coming, if only to determine just what extra qualities I can reveal.

[walterslw]

...  How are your VR5s sounding?   I've had mine for about a month, and I just spiked them up last night.   They are 10 foot 5 apart tweet to tweet, and the front baffles are 42 inches into the room.  I sit roughly 8 feet in front of the speakers.    Delacroix,  what amps are you using?   I have Bryston 7BSST Monoblocks, and am thinking they are almost too smooth for the VR5 as I can't seem to get real strong dynamics...   Timber and stage is amazing, but something seems to be missing, and I suspect it's the Brystons but looking for others to chime in...   My speaker cables are the MIT Magnum 1.3 - that may also be the issue...  Too smooth with VR5.  My pre amp is Sonic Frontiers Line 2 SE+ with Delund Caps.

[JackD201]

...  How are your VR5s sounding?   I've had mine for about a month, and I just spiked them up last night.   They are 10 foot 5 apart tweet to tweet, and the front baffles are 42 inches into the room.  I sit roughly 8 feet in front of the speakers.    Delacroix,  what amps are you using?   I have Bryston 7BSST Monoblocks, and am thinking they are almost too smooth for the VR5 as I can't seem to get real strong dynamics...   Timber and stage is amazing, but something seems to be missing, and I suspect it's the Brystons but looking for others to chime in...   My speaker cables are the MIT Magnum 1.3 - that may also be the issue...  Too smooth with VR5.  My pre amp is Sonic Frontiers Line 2 SE+ with Delund Caps.

Hi Walter,

What 6922s are you using on the SF L2 SEs? Some Telefunkens might give you some more snap.

[walterslw]

Hmmm I've thought about that....  I have stock Russian 6922s in there now, which may be the issue.  Has anyone tried the newly produced telafunkans?   NOS are getting harder to find and considerably more expensive...

[JackD201]

True but worth it Walter. It would still be the most cost effective fix as you'll only need one pair (input stage). Far cry compared to changing amps or cables. I've not tried too many new production tubes lately. Most just fell dead short of Tele or Siemens CCas in the clarity, speed and dynamics department so I stopped buying. Valvos are a bit warmer but are still more dynamic that the stock ruskies I've had. They are not that popular in the US but demand is rising. That would be a good choice too IMO.

[walterslw]

Good points and your right... I will try to find a source where I can find some NOS.

[Delacroix]

Walter -- late to reply but I am using a pair of Spectron Musician III Mk 2 mono blocks -- they’ve been my main amps for 4 years now, replacing a BAT VK500 which I still kept as it was too heavy to sell   I’ve tried numerous amps over the years from Nuforce, DAC, Audio Space and even a little Naim integrated and the Vons work well with all of them, so I am with Jack in thinking the problem with dynamics is not your Brystons.

[walterslw]

@ delacroix, I think you and Jack are both correct, I do not think the Brystons are the issue.  I checked what tubes were in my Sonic Frontiers - they are NOS Russian 6H23 tubes.  My Line 2 SE+ also has all of the bypass caps replaced with very expensive Duelund caps.  The SF gear is known to not be tuby or lush sounding but more typical of a good solid state pre amp.  The problem with the 6H23, is that they are almost too forward, lacking dynamics, and a bit of glare in the upper midrange.  I have had these tubes in this pre for almost 4 years, they are just starting to give a little tube rush (only when I am standing directly in front of the tweeter).   I am also using Grover ZX+ balanced interconnects throughout, and I think between my DAC (PS Audio Direct Stream) and Pre, they are too much of a good thing, and lacking some body and dynamics.  I think the combination of the Grover IC, plus the older 6H23s are part of my issue. 


So... I contacted Upscale Audio, and have a pair of Telefunken E88CC premium grade, cryoed tubes for the input stage, and a pair of Philips SQ E88CC tubes for the output stage (less critical, than input stage on this pre).


Also - I am using MIT Magnum 1.3 bi-wire as speaker cables, and I really like them, so I was able to get a good deal on a slightly used MIT Proline Matrix 24 interconnect to go between DAC and Pre.  I think the combination of upgraded tubes, and IC will make the necessary optimizations... 


Don't get me wrong, the VR5s sound really good, but my VR5's are not yet optimized the way my older 3.5s were.  I know I'll get there, and I suppose that is one of the realities of a speaker as revealing as the 5 - you need to deal with optimizing everything upstream to lock em in...


Appreciate the feedback from you guys.  I'll keep you posted once the tubes and cables arrive.  I really hope this does it, because I am tapped-out ($$$) for audio purchases for the next little while 

[es347]

Hey Walter...fellow Annies owner here.  You might contact Albert and se if he could loan you a pr of Masterbuilt speaker cables.  I've compared them to MITs...can't remember the model...and the MBs were significantly better.  They aren't cheap but the are very good cables.  Happy listening!

[walterslw]

I've heard similar feedback from others, VSA was supposed to lend me a MB speaker cable - one of the entry models - but they weren't included with my VR5s.  No big deal actually because I cant afford to do a MB re-cable now anyway, but will look into them in the future. 

[walterslw]

True but worth it Walter. It would still be the most cost effective fix as you'll only need one pair (input stage). Far cry compared to changing amps or cables. I've not tried too many new production tubes lately. Most just fell dead short of Tele or Siemens CCas in the clarity, speed and dynamics department so I stopped buying. Valvos are a bit warmer but are still more dynamic that the stock ruskies I've had. They are not that popular in the US but demand is rising. That would be a good choice too IMO.

Jack you hit the hammer on the nail.  Been listening to my NOS Tele E88CCs and Philips E88CC SQs in my Line 2 SE and what an improvement.   The clarity, speed, and dynamics are all greatly improved.  Tone wise very similar to the Russian 6H23-EBs, but without the upper midrange glare I was hearing on some recordings.   I also switched the interconnect between my DAC and Pre to a much better one, (MIT Proline Matrix 23) which does a better job at bringing out the lower base, but fleshing out the finer shades of instruments.   I am going to let the system play un attended for a couple of days to let the tubes settle, and cables to burn in a bit, but on my playlist of a dozen tracks - this has made for a worthwhile improvement - just what the VR5s needed.    Thank you for your input!

[JackD201]

As Hannibal always said "I love it when a plan comes together"