[Freo-1]

This subject has been tossed around a fair bit, but thought it is worth some discussion.  My personal opinion is that tubes can provide the illusion of music reproduction (especially non amplified music) a bit closer than solid state.  A system that uses bookshelf speakers driven by tubes, and subwoofer(s) driven by solid state is a excellent way to go. 

Here is a link that discusses the merits of tubes.  The sidebars are really interesting as well.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes


So, let the discussions begin.   

[Early B.]

I've owned both tube and solid state gear over the years, and my own ears haven't given me any particular reason to prefer tubes over solid state.  I've realized that a good component is due to design and build quality, regardless of whether it is tube or SS.

[Freo-1]

I've owned both tube and solid state gear over the years, and my own ears haven't given me any particular reason to prefer tubes over solid state.  I've realized that a good component is due to design and build quality, regardless of whether it is tube or SS.

There is a lot of truth in this. Having said that,  what I have noticed over the years is that the better designed tube gear just provided more overall to the reproduction of music than SS.  The sidebar describing noise between SS and tubes is very interesting. 

[Ericus Rex]

You lookin' to pick a fight, Freo?   

[Rocket]

Hi Freo 1,

I haven't used a tube amplifier in my home system but I've listened to many at dealers and friends homes.  I found that I've had to spend quite a bit of money to obtain really high performance from SS amps which satisfied my listening tastes.  I almost bought a tube amplifier whilst I was in Malaysia but I decided not to due to shipping costs etc.  I now have 84db speakers and use a 300 watt amplifier to run them so a tube amplifier won't be suitable for my situation.

Regards

Rod

Btw the Dockers were runners up for the 2013 AFL premiership and lost by one 15 points.  Inaccurate kicking cost them the match.

[Freo-1]

Hi Freo 1,

I haven't used a tube amplifier in my home system but I've listened to many at dealers and friends homes.  I found that I've had to spend quite a bit of money to obtain really high performance from SS amps which satisfied my listening tastes.  I almost bought a tube amplifier whilst I was in Malaysia but I decided not to due to shipping costs etc.  I now have 84db speakers and use a 300 watt amplifier to run them so a tube amplifier won't be suitable for my situation.

Regards

Rod

Btw the Dockers were runners up for the 2013 AFL premiership and lost by one 15 points.  Inaccurate kicking cost them the match.

Absolutely maddening about the Dockers.  At least they made it to the Grand Final.

My ATC speakers are 85 db/w, and a pair of 110 watt tube amps drive them just fine.


Not looking to pick a fight, Eric.     Just looking for some feedback from members on why they prefer tubes (or not, as the case may be).  I do think the sidebar about noise with a signal injected is most telling.

[Folsom]

Do you think higher voltage tube setups sound best?

[Freo-1]

Do you think higher voltage tube setups sound best?

In general, yes.  I have heard some low powered SET amps with modified K-Horns that were pretty special. 

[Ericus Rex]

Haven't had time yet to read your link, Freo.  Soon.  But I'll add my $0.02....

The first thing that strikes me about a tube system when A/B-ing with an ss system is the size of the stage presented.  A friend of mine used to be a Parasound and Rogue dealer and we A/B'd an all Rogue setup with an all JC Parasound setup one day.  Sonically they were both very good.  Sure the tubes had a more liquid midrange, blah blah blah but the Parasound sys was very close.  However, the Rogue setup presented a far larger soundstage, the speakers disappeared more and there was clearly much more 3d 'air' around each of the instruments.  Going back to the Para setup the sound became more directional, from the two speaker points, and the depth of the stage became much shallower and all instruments slightly more congealed into a flat plane.  The tube system was far more like a good concert venue where you close your eyes and hear sound coming at you from all directions; not just from the players themselves.  This comparison was done using the same source, speakers, cabling and music between the two.  Only the amps and preamp were swapped out.

[geowak]

Are blonds more sexy than brunettes? And what about those red heads? (the class d ones). Why would one want to guess, when the world is such a wonderful place with variety? Sorry, I hope this does not affend anyone....some have a spouse who changes hair color every year.

[Folsom]

Some people think it's the voltage. My guess is the voltage in some gear is so high it can overcome some of the short comings of cheaper componets, or componets in general. But also when current is smaller it's easier to have better, more responsive, refined but robust (for it), power throughtout the amp.

But with lower  voltage SS stuff you can make the power delivery more compitent and upgrade componets to get closer.

I heard some high end McIntosh tube gear that mostly sounded like an SS setup. I bet everything in it was regulated heavily.

The best tube setup I heard was a DIY guy with more minimal 300b I think; he also had silver wire bare and strung up floating to his special tweeters. He probably spent less than one of the McIntosh componets. You also sort of sat in a throne that was elevated, as were the speakers only a few feet away.

[BobM]

However some very inefficient speakers, like electrostats, seem to perform much better with high current SS amps. No, they don't have all of the bloom that a typical tube amp might provide, but they do have control and more slam with SS. Now this really makes no sense with high efficiency horns - quite the opposite is true in fact, and tubes seem to rule here.

I think first you have to start with the speakers, then match an amp that works with that speaker style. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat.

[Folsom]

However some very inefficient speakers, like electrostats, seem to perform much better with high current SS amps. No, they don't have all of the bloom that a typical tube amp might provide, but they do have control and more slam with SS. Now this really makes no sense with high efficiency horns - quite the opposite is true in fact, and tubes seem to rule here.

I think first you have to start with the speakers, then match an amp that works with that speaker style. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat.

If the stats can make bloom, it's possible to provide the type of amplification that'll do it.

[Freo-1]

If the stats can make bloom, it's possible to provide the type of amplification that'll do it.

Agree.  I was able to get great sound from Acoustats with both Audio Research and Threshold amps.

[Freo-1]

Here is another link regarding tubes vs. solid state for audio:

http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Tubes_versus_Solid_State.htm

There are some basic takeaways:

1) Linearity of tubes
2) Higher operating voltages
3) Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) WITH a signal applied
4) Low negative feedback

That's just for starters.

[Folsom]

I think you maybe missed the most important: Distortion pattern.

[Freo-1]

I think you maybe missed the most important: Distortion pattern.

The links do discuss distortion characteristics.   

[jimdgoulding]

Just my experience, if I may, tubes in my system and room produce the sense that instruments are radiating in three dimensions better than SS and space in acoustic recordings made on location seems very convincing.  I don't imagine for a minute, however, that detail might be bested by a SS Spectral pre, however, or something of that caliber.  I only have a tube pre.

[SteveFord]

Take an electric guitar and plug it into a Marshall valve amp.
Then plug the guitar into a Marshall solid state amp.
Try as they might at the factory, there is simply no comparison.
How do I know?  I've owned both and the SS Marshalls are long gone.

In home audio I've found that the same applies but the differences are not as pronounced.
Every year the two technologies come closer together but I don't think they'll ever really get there.
Besides, tubes are cool.   

I do own both solid state and tube stereo and guitar amps, though.  Each type has their place.

[dB Cooper]

I would say that tubes are chosen in stereo gear (sound reproduction) for different reasons than apply to instrument amps (sound production), where they are are favored specifically for their very different clipping behavior vs SS. In a home music system, one is at least presumably trying to minimize clipping although it happens. But tubes most definitely have their devotees there as well.

I have heard good, bad, and indifferent examples of both types (and hybrid gear for that matter.) What I worry about is that the tube-vs-SS debate is one of those topics that has a high potential to go like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y