[stereocilia]

I'm thinking of trading up to the Thiel CS2.7 from my PSB Synchrony Ones.  I listened to the Thiels today at my local dealer driven by all Bryston.  I was digging the CS2.7's closer-to-the-stage perspective, and their tonal accuracy was really compelling.  Thankfully, they didn't exhibit any excess sibilance (which would have been a deal breaker for me).

Unfortunately, I ran out of time before I could listen to the PSBs right after the Thiels in the same space.  I did get a chance to listen to the Sonus Faber Cremona M, which were great too, but maybe a just bit too romantic sounding for my taste.

The thing is, I love my PSBs, so maybe I can't do much better.  If the Thiels are not a big enough step up then I will focus upgrading the front end instead.

[Elizabeth]

Have you tried finessing the system? I mean little tweaky things?
Like I thought my setup was great as could be. then i read about Parsec IC a new cable from cardas and thought hmm I should try one as what the blurb said was just what i would want.. Well nice step up when i took out what i thought was a good Ic. But it was a weak link!
So now i am seeing if more will do more.. Ordered a second Parsec.
So for me, it was something relatively small. the new Ic is only a little more expensive than the old one. the old one is real old design. great in it's day, but now superceeded.

I have fiddled with all sorts of tweaks. Some good  some did not do anything. main thing was cheap. and still gave me 'more'. So if you like your speakers.. why change them just to 'do something'?

[stereocilia]

Why change speakers? Good question.  Just like in your example, you weren't unhappy with the old ic, but you are happier with the new one.  That's the sort of thing I'm talking about; I'm not trying to fix something that isn't right, I'm trying to make everything righter.  In my experience, upgrading speakers is usually the most effective way to make a large-scale improvement -- provided that the amp and the source are a good match.  That said, I'm not discounting a cable change or fine tuning as a possibility for the next step forward.  That's a good thought.

Maybe I should be looking at replacing the DAC1 USB, but speakers just feel a like a better investment and the best place to start.

EDIT:  fixed a typo

[charmerci]

Do you have room treatments (bass traps, strategically placed acoustic panels)?

[stereocilia]

Yep.  I have several GIK panels and one DIY one.  They make a noticeable improvement.  Maybe I could find out from a contractor if there is a safe and effective way to remove the support pillar in the middle of the room that that limits my listening position options.  I have a feeling that would involve a major construction project; I don't think I'm ready for that.

[Letitroll98]

You said you loved your PSBs.  Consider seriously that the Thiels are a passing fad that you would like to have, but in the end would wear on you with their up front presentation.  Also consider how many Thiels you see for sale versus how many PSBs.  People tire of Thiels up front presentation more than PSBs more relaxed view on musical values.  Bright and shiny seems better, but isn't always.

[borism]

I used to have Thiel 2.4 speakers and in my room (living room with many windows and no acoustic treatments) they were to bright sounding with some SS amplifiers. So, I often found reasons to leave the room after turning on the system.

A McIntosh MC 275 tube amplifier definitively improved (softened) the top end. However, the biggest improvement came when I replaced the Thiels with Duke's AudioKinesis speakers and their wave guide (similar to horn) tweeters. I guess, horses for courses. I still love the Thiels. They just didn't work in my environment.

[sts9fan]

Did you really say investment?

[mcgsxr]

If it were me, and I knew I liked my speakers (let alone the synergy with my amp), no question I'd be upgrading my source. 

But, if you really find the Thiels better, get after it!

[john1970]

I would take your time and make sure you are making the correct decision for the long-term (next 5-10 years at least).  Nothing you purchase in this hobby is an investment (unless you count negative returns) so look at the purchase as a cost and ensure you will be content with the purchase going forward.  Lastly, I have always found speaker upgrades more beneficial than source upgrades.

Best,
John

[stereocilia]

Okay, okay. "Investment" is not the right word.  What I mean is that a digital anything will depreciate right off a cliff compared to loudspeakers.  So, I will listen to them side-by-side, but more I think about it with the benefit of all your input--thanks everyone-- the less sense a speaker upgrade makes at this point.

[PEB]

I designed the crossover for the CS2.7 upgrade to their coax mid/tweeter driver.  It was not easy.  I was present at the voicing sessions in Lexington, after some listening in my own house. 

I can vouch for both the CS3.7 and 2.7 speakers having a 2dB/decade downsloping response from 200 to 2kHz, transitioning back to level in the treble.  This is a tonal balance curve similar to many high-end speaker brands.  However such a speaker still does not sound dark (there are other more technically involved reasons for this). 

One shining performance feature that I can vouch for with the CS2.7 -- the bass is spectacular.  Their 10" woofer RULES, and the cabinet alignment is excellent.  Play acoustic bass or drums on this speaker to believe me. 

Also, the coax unit is impressive in its own right.  The midrange is actually flat to 20kHz (without crossover).  I think the time-coherent acoustic alignment and fast response drivers may lead to the listeners' reaction of bright or forward. 

Thiel also spends for PP and polystyrene bypass caps for additional transparency.  For these reasons, system matching is a bit more critical with the upper Thiel models.  Also, all 3 drive units have aluminum diaphragms.  I promise you that I addressed the woofer ring, and achieved excellent time and phase coherency - Thiel was quite demanding of this as you can imagine. 

While I performed some reverse engineering of a few of their models (part of a technical familiarization of Jim's work) I am not intimately familiar with the design and history of all their models.  I suspect that their models over the past dozen year vary in tonal balance, and that it is a mistake to conclude that the company voices speakers to be bright/lean/forward overall.  IOW, I think the time for audiophiles to conclude that Thiel = Bright should come to an end. 

I am no longer under contract for Thiel, and I gain no benefit from their sales.  These are just my own objective and subjective observations. 

Philip Bamberg

---
I looked up the definition of 'compromise' and found a picture of a loudspeaker. 

[Phil A]

I currently have 3.7s and had 7.2s before that and at one point had SCS2s in a spare system.  Have not heard the 2.7s or anything else in the line over the past 5 years.  In general, I can say this about Thiels - they are the poster child for reproducing everything in the chain.  I have spare systems with other speakers brands.  I make many of my own cables.  A change to something better in a cable or source definitely seems to be more easily identified in Thiels.  They can be (especially the older models) not forgiving of bad recordings either.  I've also had Bryston stuff paired with the Thiels at one point (still have a 6BSST for the center and rears, which at one point was used for the 3.7s and the center, a Thiel MCS1, and also have a 3BST in a spare system that at one point drove SCS2s).  The newer Thiels are a lot more relaxed than some of the older models.

[stereocilia]

I had a chance to listen again to the 2.7s.  I do like them more than my PSB Synchrony Ones, but for the price difference I'm not ready to trade them up just yet.

Instead, I bought a used Bryston BP26 from the same dealer.  Using the Benchmark DAC1 as a preamp worked fine, but using the calibrated outputs with the BP26 is much better.  Everything just sounds more real--more powerful and present.   This way, I gain a remote control (yay!), and it opens up the possibility for a better dac without the need to limit myself to a dac/pre.  Rational or not, I don't like the idea that bits are truncated at lower volumes in the digital domain when using a dac as a preamp. 

Yeah, the Thiels do give you what's on the recording, but I don't think they are overly bright.  They allow the timbre of whatever they are playing to be easily recognized.  they aren't spitty at all, if they were I wouldn't consider them.  Often warm and forgiving speakers are just boring.

[mr_bill]

I haven't heard the 2.7, but have heard the Synchrony One and was mightily impressed. A definite overachiever and a well kept high end secret.