[RDavidson]

The question is: Can the typical audiophile support tearing down the walls that separate our territory and embrace gear that is accessible to the masses?

Pretty sure we're trying to. A lot of people use ipods and iphones to play lossless files on their systems. A lot of people are also using their computers as sources. I think these are both things that the masses use and audiophiles are beginning to embrace more and more.......especially with high res downloads and DSD. The disconnect, I see, are the companies still supporting mp3's, which they believe are good enough for the masses. They assume the masses are fine not knowing what they're missing. This is the problem in my mind. If Apple and Amazon would support hi res downloads and playback and stop selling mp3's, the line between the separate territories would largely melt away. Yes, I realize not all audiophiles are into digital playback, yet, but you best believe that the masses are. It is very difficult, in the minds of the masses, to understand why audiophiles are so obsessive about their playback systems, when mp3's are deemed good enough for them.

[johzel]

Seems my situation might be a perfect example of this thread.  My wife and I recently moved into our new downsized retirement home.  I no longer have a dedicated listening room and my wife asked if I really needed all of those "boxes" and wires in the living room . . . . . well, let me think about that  . . . so, as I'm writing this I'm awaiting word that my new LSA Statement Integrated amp is being shipped . . . . if it had a built-in headphone amp it would be a perfect one box solution for my situation.  

[dflee]

I believe that there is a cycle to the integrated, It started off consols with that all in one sound units.
As speakers and the electronics advanced we found that separating speakers meant better
sound thus the receiver was developed. With speakers constantly being developed amplification
began to improve. I took the bridge pins out of the receiver and thus had a preamp (with tuner),
amp and speakers. Further development of preamp stage had me getting a dedicated preamp.
Through major technology changes the individual pieces developed first with the integrated lagging
behind. We are at a place where the new technologies have made amps small enough again that the
integrated is now a viable product with the new class of power provided in the integrated. I personally
prefer my class A, AB sound over the newer technologies so don't see an integrated in my near future
but if things change in the different classes of amplification, I won't rule an integrated out.

[Freo-1]

Good thread.  It's a subject that audiophiles should occasionally re-visit. 

For those who eschew vinyl, the integrated amp makes a lot of sense.  The original purpose of the preamp was to straighten out the RIAA curve for records, and amplify the voltage to a sufficient level to drive power amps. 
There are a lot of excellent sounding integrated amps on the market today.  The Yamaha A-S series (especially the A-S2000 and A-S3000) have OUTSANDING performance as integrated, and in many cases, outperform many separates.   This performance is verified by bench measurements, due to design and superior power supplies.  It also has tome controls and MM/MC input to boot.  The Pass Labs INT-30A/150 takes a different approach to the design, but works very well. 
 
As one who has had issues with the new technology (Class D), I must admit that the most recent offerings have much improved performance, and can and do give traditional Class A A/B designs a good run for the money.  The high output power from these new offerings can make the presentation sound more alive than many traditional amps.  There is a lot to be said for delivering high power cleanly, regardless of how it's generated.  (Still love high powered tubes, though).   
 
So, yes, integrated amps make a lot sense.   
 
 

[haiderSonneteer]

The question is: Can the typical audiophile support tearing down the walls that separate our territory and embrace gear that is accessible to the masses?

Thanks JLM,

I think you have asked the big question. However if we (hifi type people) develop the perfect audiophile quality product that lands well into the non audiophile arena then would it not be the case that Audiophiles will simply need to catch up? Or do we need to please the audiophile community first in the same way a son always want to please his father?

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JohnR]

I think you have asked the big question. However if we (hifi type people) develop the perfect audiophile quality product that lands well into the non audiophile arena then would it not be the case that Audiophiles will simply need to catch up? Or do we need to please the audiophile community first in the same way a son always want to please his father?

FWIW I think the headphone arena is a good example of where things are being turned upside down.

[haiderSonneteer]

Yes indeed John,

Headphones are the big audio success story. While Rome was burning they built a new Rome somewhere else.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JLM]

Along these lines, I recently replaced my living room system that we use only for casual listening and was made up of my leftovers with a $99 Logitech UE smart radio (wireless internet clock radio with 6 hour battery that picks up your at home music files too).  It's smaller, has more functions than the old receiver/CDP/floorstanders, looks nicer in our nice living room, fills the large space nicely with decent sound, and outputs to headphones/etc.  So I showed it off to my son and his wife yesterday and they were interested enough to want the name of it.  That never happened with any of my older/better but bigger/clunkier gear.

Can you be an audiophile and not obsess?  For instance can we accept that MP3 is better than portable cassettes and be happy for the masses while encouraging them to greater heights (versus always looking down our noses at them)?  One of the bridges I see being built between audiophiles and the general public is the emergence of affordable self-powered speakers that are compact, affordable, and simple.  Example: the new Audioengine A2+ ($250/pair, F3 = 65 Hz, 16/48 DAC, sub output, compact, shielded).  The old A2, A5, and A5+ were all well reviewed.  What an easy way to move up into something 'serious' for home audio/video.

[mcgsxr]

I am not sure what the common definition of audiophile is, but I would contend it is someone who is both in love with music, but also the pursuit of optimal playback and reproduction of that music at the highest level.

I have gone back and forth between audiophile and music lover.

It would seem that long term I may continue to battle with it, but the current phase is closer to music lover.

I own mid fi gear at the moment (well, my Paradigm Reference Studio 20's might qualify as a toe dipping into the hi end, but I doubt it) and am happy with my combined HT and 2 channel setup in the shared basement family room (pool table, and my pre teen kids are down there a lot).

[macrojack]

The mass mind is slow to advance, impossible to stop, and averse to sudden change. All this, I suppose, is due to its mass. With this in mind, we wonder why our ways are not adopted widely.
Well, I would say that we as a culture have been veering toward portability and compactness for a long while. Digital music and digital hardware have brought this on. Do any of us imagine that this trend will reverse in the near future?
Our massive hardware and insistence on ceremonial listening have drawn us ever closer to obsolescence. The curtain is coming down. The tendency toward integrated amps seems to be an effort by us dinosaurs to forestall the inevitable.
My boys are 21 and 23 years old now. They grew up playing vinyl and enjoying sit down listening to serious audio products. They both have NHT M-OO speakers with S-OO subs and Grado headphones. Yet they both listen at their desks, usually through the cans. Their listening is personal and private.
When I was their age, my peers and I gathered in groups to smoke and listen. We were more convivial than my guys. We weren't as solo in our thinking and our lifestyles as today's youth.
Music was blossoming all around us, radio stations were exposing us to a renaissance of adventurous culture. Unity of thought and magnitude of causes were reason enough to commune.
Now we aren't sitting in movie theaters and concerts or watching television in groups. We are watching out phones and tablets and monitors alone. We are listening to earbuds alone (even if with others). We are portable and compact. We are low mass. We are low dollar. We are insular and divided. We are private. We are gestating, festering, fuming.
Better not to think too much. Let's go shopping.

We audiophiles still gather in groups to listen. We find that more rewarding I guess than listening alone all the time. We still have the big rigs and the obsession with improvement. But look at how many are downsizing or at least thinking about it. And look at the attrition rate that will only accelerate as our average age increases annually. I'm sitting on a lot of equipment that I don't even try to sell. Most of us have too much gear already. Many just can't afford to continue as consumers. Some are seeing the light. Enjoy it while the embers still glow. There will be no rekindling. The dream is over.

[haiderSonneteer]

There will be no rekindling. The dream is over.

Oh No MacroJack, Please let it not be so!

in all seriousness I see some of your point. Clutching on straws is not good enough. I do think this insular life that you reference cannot be sustained in the long term. Though a lot of our mass-ness is now not so obvious as it is in the cloud so to speak. is it healthy? only time will tell. But as long as people are listening to music we can try produce the right products to allow them to listen to it with optimum performance can we not?

On a very positive note, we at home do listen to our music together. My 3 year old daughter compels me to switch on the hifi and play it 'loud daddy' almost daily. She then dances around the room like a jellicle cat.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[macrojack]

Hello Haider -

I can say it's not so if you think that will help. Personally I do not see where my interpretation is likely to alter the course we've set. Social trends are massive and momentous. Best just to view all this as evolution. I can't stop it from happening but, by being prudent, careful, and informed, I may be able to lessen its impact on me. Many respond to any feeling of discord or inconvenience or deprivation by planting their head in the sand. Perhaps headphones are a corollary to that response.

Whatever the case, I'm thinking lately that I need to leave the stereo as it is and modify me instead.

[haiderSonneteer]

Whatever the case, I'm thinking lately that I need to leave the stereo as it is and modify me instead.

On that note I need a strong black cup of coffee.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JLM]

As technology and affluence (at least for a some percentage of the world's people) both march forward, audio has been at the fore front.  Individualism is rampant in our self-sufficient culture where we don't know our neighbor but call unknown service guys to come into our house.  We can solo commute versus taking the bus.  Instead of browsing at others or sharing in casual conversation we stare at the TV in most restaurants, or check our e-mail versus chatting with your table mate.  We have enough income and modern conveniences to not need a cook, maid, or yard keeper.  Our youth barely know how to effectively relate, but instead communicate via the web and can only play in organized/supervised settings.  We barely talk to mail clerk, janitor at work, or checkout people (if we use them) or hundreds of others that we casually interact with on a daily basis.  The world is a scary place (it always has been) so we can now blend even more into the crowd.

100 years ago listening to music was a live event, not a pastime and required at least two people with some sort of interaction, usually drawing a crowd and it wasn't perfectly recorded from a spotless performance by a top notch musician.  Now thanks to technology and affluence most listen as a pastime and completely as individuals either with buds or dedicated listening rooms with a solitary sweet spot.  And we're musical voyeurs, secretly observing the performance from behind closed doors or earbuds, ever tweaking the sound to get even the most intimate details from the performer.  We hide behind the mask of the internet, rarely revealing our true identities.  Is all this healthy? 

Are we far enough off topic now?

[JohnR]

Um, "listening to music" is fundamentally a solitary event. It's akin to "reading a book" - you can't really "read a book" with someone else, you have to read it yourself, it's not really a shared activity. Even if you go to a concert with other people, the "listening to music" part is still a solitary event. Suppose your friends were talking to you during the concert, or poking you in the ribs, or clapping, or dancing, or something. That isn't called "listening to music together", that's called "annoying." Or maybe "dancing," or whatever the other activity was. You might go there with your friends, you might talk about it afterwards, but actually listening is a solitary event.

If sharing music with other people during the event itself is important, I think "playing music" is much more likely to be rewarding than "listening to music."

[haiderSonneteer]

Um, "listening to music" is fundamentally a solitary event.
"

Tonight I unpack my guitars (we just moved house) and I will play for at least 30mins. When I was( a lot) younger I used to go round to some friends house and we jammed till the early hours. Annoying their neighbours I am sure.

Saying that we also went to gigs and enjoyed that too, not sitting and observing in a solitary manor but dancing, jumping up and down and being all out hysterical and interacting. Actually come to think of it I did just that at a Radiohead gig just a couple of months ago.

We put the music up load (and clear) at home and we interact, get on with our chores, or just read the paper. We live.

So what inputs and outputs do we actually need on the perfect integrated then?

 
Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JohnR]

So what inputs and outputs do we actually need on the perfect integrated then?

Perfect? Hm... well FWIW I'd say USB, Toslink, HDMI, SPDIF (RCA) x 2, and say 2 analog inputs. The digital ins need to be pretty good to be competitive these days, say up to 192kHz PCM. It would need a (mono) sub out and variable/switchable crossover including highpass on the internal amps. Also pre out / amp in connectors (switchable).

Assuming a multiline display and/or HDMI video out, I'd also add a USB port for sticks or drives, an Ethernet connection for remote file access, and an MHL HDMI port for streamers.

Two pre outs would be good so you can connect an external headphone amp, with switching to turn off the main amp. Inbuilt headphone sockets or amps seem a bit of a losing game these days. Having said that tho, a separate version of the product specifically targeted for desktops (which does include a top-shelf headphone amp) would be interesting.

[JLM]

Um, "listening to music" is fundamentally a solitary event. It's akin to "reading a book" - you can't really "read a book" with someone else, you have to read it yourself, it's not really a shared activity. Even if you go to a concert with other people, the "listening to music" part is still a solitary event. Suppose your friends were talking to you during the concert, or poking you in the ribs, or clapping, or dancing, or something. That isn't called "listening to music together", that's called "annoying." Or maybe "dancing," or whatever the other activity was. You might go there with your friends, you might talk about it afterwards, but actually listening is a solitary event.

If sharing music with other people during the event itself is important, I think "playing music" is much more likely to be rewarding than "listening to music."

On one level I agree, only I live in my head (so far as I know).  And I agree that performing is normally much more rewarding than listening.  But on the concert experience I disagree.  Going to a rock concert is often highly interactive with those you might of come with or those nearby.  Certainly not everyone considers all interactions during a concert to be annoying.  Even a more sedate concert can still involve a shared experience (hand holding, a smile, joined celebration post-performance, and yes memories afterwards).  There must be more to life than just self (or the internet).

[JohnR]

Even a more sedate concert can still involve a shared experience (hand holding, a smile, joined celebration post-performance, and yes memories afterwards).

Yes, but that isn't the experience of listening.

  There must be more to life than just self (or the internet).

Of course, but that doesn't mean that everything has to be non-self either. I guess I don't really even see why there's a dichotomy being proposed/promoted here.

The anti-Internet thing is odd, though. Surely that is sharing experience? It might not include someone who happens to be watching someone typing, but just because you're excluded from that particular interaction it doesn't mean that everybody else is. While I'm not young so can merely observe/comment, frankly it seems to me that the younger crowd are far more sociable than those of our age ever were.

[macrojack]

Perfect? Hm... well FWIW I'd say USB, Toslink, HDMI, SPDIF (RCA) x 2, and say 2 analog inputs. The digital ins need to be pretty good to be competitive these days, say up to 192kHz PCM. It would need a (mono) sub out and variable/switchable crossover including highpass on the internal amps. Also pre out / amp in connectors (switchable).

Assuming a multiline display and/or HDMI video out, I'd also add a USB port for sticks or drives, an Ethernet connection for remote file access, and an MHL HDMI port for streamers.

Two pre outs would be good so you can connect an external headphone amp, with switching to turn off the main amp. Inbuilt headphone sockets or amps seem a bit of a losing game these days. Having said that tho, a separate version of the product specifically targeted for desktops (which does include a top-shelf headphone amp) would be interesting.

JohnR - This piece checks a lot of your boxes:  http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m903/m903.htm

With remote, it sells for about $2K. I've thought long and hard about buying one. It is a parallel to my Jeff Rowland Design Group Capri preamplifier. Even uses the same remote with different command assignments. Capri has onboard phono which Grace does not offer.

All things considered, I think NAD is showing everyone else the way presently. That D3020 has most bases covered for only $500.