SACD vs. high end CD playback, what's the verdict so far?

Mathew_M · « **on:** 13 Feb 2003, 04:03 pm »

I'm aiming this question to those who have high performance redbook and SACD/DVD-A players in upscale systems. Last night I borrowed my parents lowly sony dvd/sacd player. I think it's the 500 model. Anyway, I wanted to hear the SACD performance in my system. To be honost I wasn't real impressed but I kept in mind that this player is at the bottom of the sony heap. It probably was the player or perhaps the cheap cables but I kept hearing a blunted haloing around certain high frequencies and vocals, cymbals were severely smeared and lastly instruments tended to sound distant and small. What I did like and is still missing from my redbook rig (Jolida 100 and Art DIO) is the air, presence, some detail and tonality. On Miles Davis' So What on the sampler SACD I really could hear the atmosphere of the recording venue. Comparatively the remastered cd sounds like a reproduction and not as interesting.

Currently what I really like about SACD and vinyl is that it doesn't make me want to upgrade my amplification. I've been sweating over getting something to replace my LeAmps because they sound pretty sterile with my current setup. However it's not so bad with vinyl and SACD. Sure a better amp would help but I probably could get away with a good Solid state amp rather than spend rediculous amounts on a high enough powered tube amp.

I suppose I should add that I'm looking either at a philips SACD 1000 or one of Sony's ES series players like the 9000 or new 999

Jay S · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Feb 2003, 04:19 pm »

Interesting question. You can refer to some of the DAM shootouts in which they've compared the smART and Mensa DI/O's with the XA777ES. Guan and I are also going to be doing our own comparison, putting the XA777ES up against Mensa and his highly modified pencil tube dac. I especially want to do the comparison using hybrid SACDs, to see how SACD on the 777ES compares with redbook from our highly tweaked dacs.

By the way, if your Le Amps sound sterile in your system I strongly suggest that you look into providing better power to them -- get a dedicated power line for your system or get a good power filter. We've done comparisons at Guan's place with the Le Amps plugged straight into the wall, plugged into a dedicated line, and plugged into a DeZorel power filter plugged into a dedicated line. The Le Amp's performance takes a jump forward with each improvement in the power you feed them and ultimately can sound very musical, natural and emotional (and this is without any tubes upstream, and using silver interconnects and speaker cables).

Mathew_M · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 12:22 am »

Thanks Jay,

Currenty the LeAmps are plugged directly into the wall. I've been looking into getting an AC conditioner. Any suggestions? I know Blue Circle has one that has gotten good reviews. Maybe that will be my next upgrade.

Jay S · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 01:44 am »

Matthew,

The only power filter that I have heard with the LeAmp is the DeZorel. It made a significant improvement, with no downsides (e.g. dynamics not constrained, tonal balance not hurt) that I could detect.

eric the red · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Feb 2003, 02:18 am »

What's a little frustrating with SACD playback vs redbook with my SACD 1000 to me is the quality of some SACD recordings. For example; I have Stevie Ray Vaughn's "Couldn't Stand The Weather" on redbook and SACD. The redbook recording is pretty poor but the SACD recording isn't much better. For the price you pay for SACDs its pretty hard to justify buying crappy recordings. Once again it all comes down to the recording no matter what what kind of gear you play it back on. I'm not hearing that much of a sonic difference between well-recorded redbook discs like Brubeck's "Time Out" and its redbook counterpart either.

PeteG · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 06:10 pm »

Eric,
I listen to Stevie Ray SACD discs quite a bit and always enjoyed
the SACD discs alot over redbook ones.

But you are right about the good/bad recordings, very well pure
DSD recordings on SACD sound amazing to me.

-Pete

saneron67 · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 08:56 am »

I have Sony 9000es and I would say that the key is in the recordings. Some SACD recordings are fabulous and some of them are not.

I think it is better to buy new SACD recordings than buying reissue SACD from old masters. New pure DSD recordings create wonder in any decent system. However, I am not very happy with reissue SACDs. I would say I can keep or buy redbooks for the old recordings. It does not make sense to pay premium for old recordings. IMHO, It is only a marketing plot to skim more money for the good old thing.

It is important to know how much effort is put into that SACD recording. For example, dark side of the moon's SACD version is an exception effort and it is definetely better than CD version.

please remember also; first CDs were very bad sounding compare to LPs in early 80s. But now, redbook recordings and equipments are mature and so the recording tools for it. I expect the same thing for SACD next coming years if it survives.

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 10:14 pm »

Seems that price isn't much of a factor with the large amount of overlap in prices out there for both types of players and good SACD plays redbook pretty well (speaking here in general terms).

So why not go SACD or universal and have both/it all?

shokunin · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Jul 2003, 02:11 am »

My system isn't high-end, but the difference between redbook and SACD using the XA777ES as a transport into Theta Casablanca Xtreme DACs are small. Pure DSD recorded discs DO sound better, but a lot of it is based on the recording.

I think the SACD is still in it's infancy and with SACD II

around the corner, who knows what will be next. Let's see if our current SACD players will be rendered obsolete and incapable of reading SACD II discs. Way to go Sony / Philips.

Jay S · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Jul 2003, 03:38 am »

To me, the main benefit of getting a universal player at this point is being able to replace my cd player (now just used as a transport) and DVD player with a single box. Being able to play SACDs/DVD-As will be a bonus.

I am toying with the idea of getting a used Sony 9000ES since I have heard that they are excellent transports. I need to see how compatible it is with the DI/O dac, which seem to lose sync a lot when used with a DVD player.

Marbles · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Jul 2003, 03:46 am »

My Sony DVP S7700 hit's about 2/3 of the time when starting a CD.

It won't break synch unless I open the drawer or turn off the player.

If you get a 9000, have it sent directly to Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio for his mods.

You might want to enquire about his Perp Tech P3a mods as well.

Jay S · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jul 2003, 04:11 am »

Thanks, Rob.

I tried my Mensa with a Pioneer 47Ai and it would lose sync more than half of the time when I would change CDs. To reestablish sync, I would need to power down the Mensa then wait to plug it back in after the green LED had fully gone dead. This would improve if I hit the Video Off switch of the 47Ai, but I'd still lose sync about 25% of the time when changing CDs... Besides being a pain, I worry that cycling the power on/off will shorten the life of caps of the Mensa.

Yes, I would certainly get in touch with Steve re mods. I think he is doing something that other modders don't do, given his formal training in digital circuit design.

Ears · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Aug 2003, 11:34 pm »

I can hear a huge difference in soundstage and inner detail on any SRV sacd over the redbook release.

Are you people re-digitizing the sacd signal?...if so, no wonder your not hearing the difference.
In order to get the benifits of SACD, you have to run it through pure analog outs with no preamp dacs in the chain.

My Sony 9000es clearly demonstrated the superiopr sonics of Sacd over redbook, and my better sounding Phillips 963sa does as well.

I do agree that pure dsd recordings are of better quality though.

Brad V · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 02:34 pm »

Quote from: Mathew_M

I'm aiming this question to those who have high performance redbook and SACD/DVD-A players in upscale systems. Last night I borrowed my parents lowly sony dvd/sacd player. I think it's the 500 model. Anyway, I wanted to hear the SACD performance in my system. To be honost I wasn't real impressed but I kept in mind that this player is at the bottom of the sony heap. It probably was the player or perhaps the cheap cables but I kept hearing a blunted haloing around certain high frequencies and vocals, cym ...

Hi,

From what I've heard, the best SACD Player with a great SACD recording pretty much blows away a great CD Player with a great Redbook recording. I've heard this on two such occasions. The most costly system, being just 5 minutes from my house, is an Accuphase 100 Transport going into a Accuphase 101 SACD/CD DAC. These fed into Wisdom Amps and Wisdom speakers. Hantra heard the same system as I did, however I don't know if he heard the SACD's. One CD in particular, was a Red Rose Sampler.

Next up was a Sony 777ES for SACD and a Sonic Frontiers very tweaked CD Player. Allison Kraus sounded so much better in redbook on the Sonic Frontier CD Player than the Sony 777ES in Redbook. Then we moved to SACD on the Sony and that blew redbook away by a mile.

Have a great day,

Brad

Slee_Stack · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Aug 2003, 01:38 am »

Multi-channel capability is the the most obvious benefit. New, high quality recorded sources sound superior in the end SACD format. Reissues vary with mileage. Off topic, multi-channel is hit and miss. Steely Dan's new DVDA is vastly superior on two channel than on 5.1. Some of this is due to the higher bit rate (per track) but most is due to the less-than-ideal placements in the 5.1 mix.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Aug 2003, 03:07 am »

Hmmm...I gotta disagree with you on this one. I don't think the Steely Dan stereo track is worth listening to once you hear the MC version. Guess opinions vary. I do agree however that it's hit and miss. The Black album by Metallica is mostly awful in MC, except for the mix on "Enter Sandman", which I like. On the other hand, I'll never waste my time on the stereo version of DSotM now that I have the MC.