[neobop]

"They" say that Mikey is always favorable toward VPI, and the new reviewer on the block gets a free ad every time someone clicks on Classic Direct at VPI site.  Pretty slick.  Fremer talked about his reference, but he didn't say squat about Brinkmann Bardo ($8K w/o arm) which he also reviewed. 

The problem is, you can't really believe them even if you read between the lines.  This Thin Gap motor is expensive, but I also wonder if, or how much better it is than a regular coreless and slotless motor.  CD does have an 18 lb platter.....   
neo

I didn't mean to imply that anyone is dishonest here, but there's always factors of individual preference, and subconscious favoritism.  Sometimes it's what they don't say or try that can be most relevant.  Fremer was going to purchase the TOTL Brinkmann (belt drive) before the Caliburn showed up.  When he reviewed Bardo it didn't have the deep bass of the others.  Part of the art of reviewing/set-up is finding combinations that compliment, and reporting that rather than just sticking some expensive combination on there and pronouncing judgment.  Fremer said as much in his Bardo review but we don't know what the outcome would have been with the right combination.  But that's not how most people read it.  Fremer has always fallen short in that aspect, well ever since the '80s.  The only reason I bother elucidating this opinion is because he happens to be one of the best out there, digital samples notwithstanding.    The other guy is an amateur.  He's well qualified to take photos.   
neo

[Ericus Rex]

I really appreciated MW of VPIs comment on that audiogon thread that the sound quality improvement over a Classic 4 is in his opinion only about 5%. Takes a lot of honesty and guts to say that, and strengthens my opinion of VPI. If someone wants and has the money to pay more than three times as much for a Classic Direct, more power to them. But at least VPI is not trying to say it sounds three times (or even twice) as good.

The magic's always in the last 5% IME.  And the law of diminishing returns is everywhere.

[rcag_ils]

How long ago did they stop making that table? 2006? They seem to have some parts on hand for it, but to expect them to continue making parts for a table that hasn't been sold new for so many years is asking a bit much IMO. And with so many of these sold, I imagine that most parts could be found on the secondary market with some patience and looking.

VPI has no more parts, I already called. That's exactly the point, if they sold so many of them, they should keep making parts. VPI is moving away from making tables that allow you to swap tonearm, they want to sell you their tonearms.

[neobop]

VPI has no more parts, I already called. That's exactly the point, if they sold so many of them, they should keep making parts. VPI is moving away from making tables that allow you to swap tonearm, they want to sell you their tonearms.

Yea, that sucks.  They only sold about a million of them and now if you need a part it's like you have an old Empire and the company is out of business.  They don't care anymore, not like they used to.  They're too busy doing what's right and easier for them, and catering to the customer is like a PR consideration for a big corporation.

I'm sure Harry would tell us, the unified approach (arm included) allows them to make a more affordable package.  It does.  They no longer have to mess with armboards and horror of horror, cut boards for other arms.  Plus, they get to sell their arms.  At least one member here was considering a Classic, but he doesn't like unipivots, and didn't buy the table.  Just about every other table manufacturer will sell their table set-up for your arm, but VPI doesn't need to anymore.  Sales are through the roof.  That's why methinks, the HW-19 was discontinued.  Not expensive enough to be in their custom table lineup. 

Now they have a $1K table that comes with a phono stage, HP amp, and a $25 pr of Grado headphones.  Can't say I ever heard it, but it looks like a U-turn would put it to shame.  It's ironic, for many years $1K was the price of an HW-19 w/o arm. 
neo

[galyons]

...
I'm sure Harry would tell us, the unified approach (arm included) allows them to make a more affordable package.  It does.  ...
neo

Totally agree.  Most of the current products are simpler, need a less complicated vendor supply chain, require reduced inventory and are easier to manufacture.  That does not necessarily equate to a better value, sound or cost to the consumer. But I do think that VPI does try to maximize the consumer value.

Cheers,
Geary

[rcag_ils]

I'm sure Harry would tell us, the unified approach (arm included) allows them to make a more affordable package.

What they don't understand is audiophiles want to play with stuff. They want to be empowered to change things that they have without replacing them. VPI will eventually sell people a boombox with their budget turntable on it.

[rcag_ils]

They no longer have to mess with armboards and horror of horror, cut boards for other arms.  Plus, they get to sell their arms.  At least one member here was considering a Classic, but he doesn't like unipivots, and didn't buy the table.

I get the armboard part, it does cost a little more time to cut them. But what about the motor, bearing, platter, upgraded sub-chassis. We need those parts too.

[neobop]

I get the armboard part, it does cost a little more time to cut them. But what about the motor, bearing, platter, upgraded sub-chassis. We need those parts too.

I guess you're talking about HW19 parts?   AFAIK, that's the only one with a chassis and that was a steel reinforced top plate.  It accommodated the armboard, and the springs were at the corners.   I'm not positive about the last couple of versions, but earlier ones didn't have inverted bearings.  They don't make em like that anymore and that could be a big reason why it was discontinued.  It looks like none have a suspension, and all the ones with heavy platters have inverted bearings.  It's been a long time and if I'm wrong about some of this please set the record straight.  I do know, no more parts for HW19.  If you can substitute an upgrade part, I think they'll sell it you and probably help you figure it out.  VPI has always been good like that.

I wasn't sure about the situation with the current line-up, so I called my local dealer, Quest for Sound.  It looks like I wasn't 100% accurate about arm substitution.  Apparently you can order just about any with no arm and cut for whatever arm you want or have, or uncut.  I thought the production ones came only as pictured.  They're the ones kept in stock.  The newer ones have no armboard so you're cutting into the plinth or top plate.  That discourages arm swapping and makes it much more likely to be sold with an arm.  It is what it is, which is a much more attractive deal with an arm.

Over the years I've read about people owning a TNT for example, and buying an upgrade platter and/or motor arrangement.  I don't think that possibility has changed even though the TNT is discontinued.  If I had an HW-19 with a bearing problem, I'd be inclined to replace both the bearing and platter with Classic parts.  You'd probably have to ditch the suspension and might have to elevate the pulley.  For less money you could find a conventional bearing, but if the platter wobbles, first figure out if that will fix it.
neo

[rcag_ils]

Yes, I am talking about the HW-19. I think HW-19 was VPI's experimentation of their turntables, they made so many different platters for them that people lost track of them, aluminum platter, acrylic without lead, with lead, with more lead, with stainless steel layer, with grooves, without grooves, with suspension, without suspension, with built-in motor, with isolated motor, belt drive, two pulley drive, rim drive. Same with their TNTs.

Now they finally narrow it down to aluminum platter, without suspension, with their own arm, and in different price range. And they call it a "Classic".

Now, all the HW-19 owner got screwed, when their HW-19 go bad, they would have to dump them and buy a, you guess it, a "Classic".

To me it's bullshit.

If someone wanted to put a different arm on his HW-19 MK-4, he couldn't, no arm board available, they'd have to make his own, what kind of bullshit is this?

[roscoeiii]

Why does every VPI thread turn into a "bash or moan about VPI" thread? Let's try to stay on topic.

Can we please stick to the thread topic instead of going OT about the HW-19 and its parts availability. If this is worth talking about, put it in its own thread.

[rcag_ils]

Sure, I'll stick to the topic. I think the VPI direct drive with the 3D arm is not worth the $30,000 price tag.

I'd rather to upgrade my HW-19jr to a HW-19 MK-4, but the parts are not available, I think it's bullshit to make such a nice table obsolete.

[roscoeiii]

Sure, I'll stick to the topic. I think the VPI direct drive with the 3D arm is not worth the $30,000 price tag.

I'd rather to upgrade my HW-19jr to a HW-19 MK-4, but the parts are not available, I think it's bullshit to make such a nice table obsolete.

Well you just let us know when you have actually heard the direct drive VPI.

Start another thread if you just want to whine about the HW-19. That's not the topic of this thread.

[BobM]

I heard the 3D arm vs the regular arm on a Classic 3 with the same cartridge when Harry hosted a massive local audio meeting at his factory last summer. It was readily apparent to anyone  that the 3D arm was doing something special. He just lifted the original arm off and put the new arm in and played the same music. The benefits were not subtle at all and there were many people there who heard it. This has been reported in many places, including Fremer (who was never a terribly big fan of the JMW arm, but who loves the new 3D version).

As for the motor - all new cutting edge development will have a high price tag. give it a year and I bet there will be other tables from other manufacturers at lower price points with a similar design. B ut I doubt that you will see one for under $10K if the improvement in sound is as big as reported by those who have heard and compared it to a traditional belt drive.

[neobop]

Rcag_ils,
You have a discontinued table which is no longer supported by the manufacturer.  That's reality now and you'll have to deal with it.  If you need help finding parts or modifying, open a thread as Roscoe suggests.  I'm sure you'll get some good ideas and sources. 

The rectangular armboard for the HW19 is one of the easier ones to make.  Look on the bright side, at least you have an armboard.  You can probably find a blank one or use this as an opportunity to make a better one, maybe a laminate.  You might even be able to turn your armboard around and drill the other end.  The old hole would then be in the front - turn it into a magic eraser reservoir or put a cup of lead shot in there and you have a vibration sink. 

I don't know if you have a specific need at this time or just unhappy with the situation.  The best thing about these forums is getting help, ideas and information.  Take advantage of it, or not.  Time to move on.
neo

[neobop]

I heard the 3D arm vs the regular arm on a Classic 3 with the same cartridge when Harry hosted a massive local audio meeting at his factory last summer. It was readily apparent to anyone  that the 3D arm was doing something special. He just lifted the original arm off and put the new arm in and played the same music. The benefits were not subtle at all and there were many people there who heard it. This has been reported in many places, including Fremer (who was never a terribly big fan of the JMW arm, but who loves the new 3D version).

As for the motor - all new cutting edge development will have a high price tag. give it a year and I bet there will be other tables from other manufacturers at lower price points with a similar design. B ut I doubt that you will see one for under $10K if the improvement in sound is as big as reported by those who have heard and compared it to a traditional belt drive.

Yes, I've read that numerous times about the 3D arm.  This is a $5K arm and it's compared to what?  Was it the original arm or the Classic 3 ?   Fremer isn't the only one who isn't a big fan of JMW arms, so what exactly does that tell us?  Seems to me Harry's little demonstration trashes his own product and proves almost nothing.

"But I doubt that you will see one for under $10K if the improvement in sound is as big as reported by those who have heard and compared it to a traditional belt drive."

You heard the comparison with both tables having the same arm, or a Classic 1 vs a Classic Direct/3D ?  Even Harry and Matt(?) say the difference in the the tables themselves is small.  I think it's a little soon to be making assumptions about the motor.  Because of the design sans armboard, it's difficult to make individual comparisons.  If anyone is interested in the motor it's here:
http://www.thingap.com/

I've lost respect for Harry and his theatrics.  He used to be an honest hard working guy who made plinths for JVC tables and then started his own company.  Now that he's successful it seems like ambition has gotten the better of him.  You should read some of his posts on Asylum.  Being successful isn't enough for some people.  They don't know when to give it a rest, like they still have something to prove. 

Harry,
Are you familiar with the term counterproductive?
neo

[rollo]

  It is all about the motor used.  Well mostly the arm is no slouch either. The motor was developed to be used in submarines. Military grade with exceptional low noise characteristics. Not a product easily had as the Manf. strictly sold to the Navy only. Good Ol harry made the purchase possible through a naval connection. For now exclusive for VPI only.
   The platter a CNC machined item at 18lbs is not inexpensive to manf. either. The arm takes over 24 hours to produce with the laser printer. Not inexpensive either.
    Take all of that plus overhead and profit for dealer pricing there you have it. $30,000 is list price. Very few will pay list price. Dealers will make deals. It is business. No one is forcing the TT on anyone.
    After hearing a direct comparison of two different arms with same cart. It was quite obvious to tell which was closer to real sound. The 3D arm took the cake, coffee and all else. A wonderful accomplishment IMO. BTW I am a Kuzma dealer not an VPI dealer.

charles
     

 

[BobM]

I've lost respect for Harry and his theatrics.

Yeah, I think everyone on this thread has figured this out by now. Can we move on now?

[neobop]

  It is all about the motor used.  Well mostly the arm is no slouch either. The motor was developed to be used in submarines. Military grade with exceptional low noise characteristics. Not a product easily had as the Manf. strictly sold to the Navy only. Good Ol harry made the purchase possible through a naval connection. For now exclusive for VPI only.
   The platter a CNC machined item at 18lbs is not inexpensive to manf. either. The arm takes over 24 hours to produce with the laser printer. Not inexpensive either.
    Take all of that plus overhead and profit for dealer pricing there you have it. $30,000 is list price. Very few will pay list price. Dealers will make deals. It is business. No one is forcing the TT on anyone.
    After hearing a direct comparison of two different arms with same cart. It was quite obvious to tell which was closer to real sound. The 3D arm took the cake, coffee and all else. A wonderful accomplishment IMO. BTW I am a Kuzma dealer not an VPI dealer.

Charles

About this motor, do you know for a fact this is exclusive to VPI, and how so?  VPI says the platter is the rotor and a circuit board is the stator.  This motor  is probably custom made by Thin Gap so that's what you mean by, for now?

I go to Thin Gap site and these are products they have off the shelf:
http://www.thingap.com/standard-products/

They have a whole custom division and it looks like they'll sell to anyone placing their minimum order.   The bit about the submarine makes a good story, but how relevant is it?   I'm sure there are companies in Japan and Germany for instance, that can make a comparable high tech motor.  At this point we don't really know the individual contributions of the arm and motor. 

"After hearing a direct comparison of two different arms with same cart. It was quite obvious to tell which was closer to real sound."

Is this a different comparison?  If so, what?
neo

[Devil Doc]

I was under the impression the motor was designed by an in-house engineer. At least that's what I thought I got out of Fremer's VPI visit video.

Doc

[neobop]

I was under the impression the motor was designed by an in-house engineer. At least that's what I thought I got out of Fremer's VPI visit video.
Doc

The engineer designed the motor, then Harry's kid snuck it aboard a US nuclear submarine (his friend is stationed on) to test it.  After it adequately propelled the sub they declared it fit for production.   

Seriously, I think the VPI guy designed the circuit board/stator and worked in conjunction with Thin Gap.  The submarine motor is some kind that has to be silent.  I don't know if it's basically the same, or not.  It doesn't matter IMO.  Just something to add to the mystique and justify the price tag.

I thought I made it clear that the price needs no justification IMO.  VPI thinks it does.  The Classic 1 is a slam dunk at $3K, at least that's what's being said, and it's wildly successful.  Why demonstrate a $30K table against one of the other Classics?  The new arm alone cost more or as much as the other table.  Despite the deceptive demonstration and questionable reviews, I think this is probably a great table.
neo