[neobop]

RE: $23 motor - apparently Harry was referring to another company's table (that was on the shelf) as using the same inexpensive motor, not the more expensive VPIs.    I must admit, I missed this distinction the first time I viewed the video. 

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1064271

neo

[Gzerro]

I missed that as well. I assumed he was talking about the Classic 3 Rosewood which happens to retail for $6,500. It seemed an odd thing to say, now it makes perfect sense.

HWs response was a bit much. Must be some history there.

[Sonny]

In defense of VPI and big mouth Harry, it's not the price of the motor (except maybe the DD motor) you're paying for.   40% of the retail cost goes to the dealer, but it's the cost of labor, design, machining, R&D that's expensive.  Machining acrylic and steel, not to mention making a tonearm and main bearing, is expensive.

neo

I agree here, the fact that the manufacturer is the one that makes and assumes all the risks in the business, the retailers are the ones making a killing.  With roughly 100% over wholesale, the retailers is making basically double what the manufacturer makes!  AND there is no risks as a retailer can take your (consumer's) money, then order it from the manufacturer!

Just because HW tells you how much things costs, etc...and they are transparent about it, doesn't mean that they use cheap parts and sell it to you at astronomical prices..hey, if they could make it work and sell, they'd be out of business!

[zuluwarrior0760]

23.00 motor and whether he was referring to a VPI or some other cheap table
in their shop aside:

Audio manufacturers and in particular turntable manufacturers seem to operate
on the same principle as restaurants, that being:

the actual cost of food, exclusive of labor, rent, taxes, workers comp, supplies
accounting etc etc...........must be 1/5th of what it sells for ultimately
or the restaurant will go out of business fairly quickly regardless of volume
or traffic......

so a 6K VPI table has almost half for a dealer, that means VPI nets around 3500 or so.....
at least 2000 or so represents all the miscellaneous listed above and in addition to
that, marketing as well as freight, not only to the dealer, but also freight they must
pay on a lot of their materials (ever shipped a 3d printer?) etc....

so the rule of 1/5th holds true.....the raw materials to make that table are worth
around 1200 bucks.....

and to confirm my suspicion, in the little known part 3 of Michael's tour,
Harry W alludes to that exact multiplier.........the problem is the motor......it COSTS US
4 grand, so you do the multiplier.......that's a 20K motor........right there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ6WIiNU00w

Ultimately, the question is:

Should VPI retail tables at 5x parts cost?

Answer: YES

Many audio manufacturers use that as a jumping off point.....

Would the audio world be better off to just be able to call up VPI for 40 off and
cut out the dealer?

in some cases, no

in most cases with dealers that don't provide setup, never come to your home,
and in a LOT of cases are not even in a buyer's state, let alone zip code......then I say
VPIdirect.com, here I come......
If the Classic Direct cost 10K, which this seems to indicate that it actually "could"
theoretically......I'd be an owner right now.......
Meanwhile I'll just have to limp by with my C3 LOL

[neobop]

I agree here, the fact that the manufacturer is the one that makes and assumes all the risks in the business, the retailers are the ones making a killing.  With roughly 100% over wholesale, the retailers is making basically double what the manufacturer makes!  AND there is no risks as a retailer can take your (consumer's) money, then order it from the manufacturer!

Just because HW tells you how much things costs, etc...and they are transparent about it, doesn't mean that they use cheap parts and sell it to you at astronomical prices..hey, if they could make it work and sell, they'd be out of business!

Hi Sonny,
Agreed about manufacturing, look at the prices of the Basis tables.  They're great tables.  Value is relative to whatever else you can get, but retailers don't have it so easy.  They don't come close to 100% over wholesale, no way.  Every line is different to some extent, in the terms of the dealer agreement.  Product has to be stocked and the bill is normally due in a month.  Most lines have minimum ordering.  If you pay the bill early, you get the max discount but the dealer has to pay for shipping that 80 lb table.  That whittles their percentage down to 30 - 35% and they're out big bucks until it's sold.

There are a couple of other things like overhead and dealing with the public.  It costs a lot of money to run a store.  The electric bill, salaries, taxes, rent, all add up.  How could people audition equipment unless it's on display?  BTW, demo pieces are sold at a discount.  Speaking of discounts, in some stores everything is subject to discount.  Even with "protected" lines the dealer can write Demo on the sales slip.  That's how we did it and that's why we moved so much equipment.  Of course, at lower profit margins. 

Many people don't have the time or inclination to set up or even choose components.  If something goes wrong they call the dealer.  If they want a different component, the dealer works it out.  Not everybody is into DIY or is into researching what to get and how to get it going.  The dealer provides a valuable intermediary between the manufacturer and the consumer.  It's been a long time since I was in retail, but I doubt if things changed much, except a lot of retailers went out of business.
neo   

[Sonny]

Neo,

I agree with you...I was just saying, but you are correct, having a B&M store is not cheap and there are other costs besides the ones you mentioned.  I was just stating the facts to people as they always think "someone" is ripping them off.  It seems like a common conception on this and other forums.  I mean, at the end of the day, it's a case of "supply an demand"!
Kudos to Harry and other manufacturers out there that keeps on making products we can only imagine...and the dealers/distributors that makes it possible to audition the products!

Hope all is well!

[rollo]

     After hearing a demo of the arm at VPI against the JW memorial arm using same cart the difference was not subtle. Wether that difference is worth the money is up to the potential buyer.
      Pricing is what it is. hey I'd like a Ferrari for cheap but it ain't happening. Dealers of such are taking a chance with stock, paying rent and salaries. Years ago the standard of price for a manf. was 5X cost. Built in is dealer profit as well as a distributor profit. Selling direct would eliminate 40% for dealer and if a distributor is involved more.
      Today not many if any still work on 5X cost. Maybe the big boys can get it but most not. Some dealers with low overhead work on much less. Business is for profit and service. The cottage guys that sell direct or through Reps can cut retail costs. However hardly noticed as they do not advertise in the well known publications. So very little coverage of their wares.
      With VPI one gets a quality product with excellent resale value.  BTW not a VPI dealer or fan boy.


charles

[neobop]

     After hearing a demo of the arm at VPI against the JW memorial arm using same cart the difference was not subtle. Wether that difference is worth the money is up to the potential buyer.
charles

A comparison with the Basis Vector 4 micrometer ($5500) should be more interesting.  What's the 3D arm by itself, $5K?  Seems like there are a number of arms in $5 - 6K price range that are well thought of.  Graham Phantom, Clearaudio Universal, Morch, Origin Live, Triplaner, probably many more. 
How nice.
neo

[neobop]

Here's Mikey's take on the VPI Classic Direct:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/vpi-classic-direct-drive-signature-turntable

neo

[Wayner]

Limited production quantities is what drives the price of the high end (even higher). Do you think that manufacturing supply companies want to build 10 or 25 or even 50 units? That barely covers the set-up costs for most companies. You, as the consumer, pay huge price penalties on low volume, high priced gear.

The usual table formula works here: The lower the production run, the higher the unit cost. While VPI may have some unique stuff, like the 3D tonearm, I wonder if the unit is much better then my $500 Technics SL1200MKII (2007 model). Technics built over 2,000,000,000 of these babies. The tooling costs spread over 2,000,000 units is almost a non-factor. How many DD tables has VPI sold? I doubt if the number is going to be over a 2,000 a year (just a guess, but I think it's a good guess).

Most consumers think they are spending their money on some super high technology, but the reality is, they are spending it on low production runs and that does not equate to quality.

[galyons]

Limited production quantities is what drives the price of the high end (even higher). Do you think that manufacturing supply companies want to build 10 or 25 or even 50 units? That barely covers the set-up costs for most companies. You, as the consumer, pay huge price penalties on low volume, high priced gear.

The usual table formula works here: The lower the production run, the higher the unit cost. While VPI may have some unique stuff, like the 3D tonearm, I wonder if the unit is much better then my $500 Technics SL1200MKII (2007 model). Technics built over 2,000,000,000 of these babies. The tooling costs spread over 2,000,000 units is almost a non-factor. How many DD tables has VPI sold? I doubt if the number is going to be over a 2,000 a year (just a guess, but I think it's a good guess).

Most consumers think they are spending their money on some super high technology, but the reality is, they are spending it on low production runs and that does not equate to quality.

I think that this pronouncement is a bit naive.  The thought process appears to be linear, when, IMO, it is not.  Yes, low production runs and HIGH quality specifications/tolerances are expensive.  Low quality and low quantity runs are also expensive, relative to mass production.  Mass production does NOT necessarily improve quality.  Acceptances tolerances and manufacturing equipment wear/variation are usually much wider in mass produced items.  Mass production is usually targeted to different consumer base.

IMO, kinda like saying that '80 pop vinyl was a better value than today's limited production 180 gram vinyl.  Different markets. Different expectations. Different investments. There is a difference in building to a price point versus building to highest quality spec.  The price point limits the quality. The quality spec sets the price. 

Of course, as in all things, YMMV.

Cheers,
Geary

[neobop]

Sure Wayner, whatever makes you feel better.

The Classic Direct has a $4K motor and an 18 lb platter, not exactly mass produced items.    Mikey says it approaches his $150K Continuum Caliburn in performance at 1/5 the price.  You wonder if it's much better than your 1200?

I'm sure it's only a tiny bit better.  All it does is play a record just like your Technics does.    
neo

[Wayner]

I'm sure neither one of you have been in a manufacturing environment, and some of the realities of cost are hard to swallow. You can keep your thought patterns as you see fit, but the margins of improvement from a $500 table to a $30,000 table are not 60 to 1 in terms of cost to performance ratio. If you believe that, well then............

[Brad]

Limited production quantities is what drives the price of the high end (even higher). Do you think that manufacturing supply companies want to build 10 or 25 or even 50 units? That barely covers the set-up costs for most companies. You, as the consumer, pay huge price penalties on low volume, high priced gear.

The usual table formula works here: The lower the production run, the higher the unit cost. While VPI may have some unique stuff, like the 3D tonearm, I wonder if the unit is much better then my $500 Technics SL1200MKII (2007 model). Technics built over 2,000,000,000 of these babies.

Two billion?    That's a lot of turntables.  One for every 3.5 folks in our world.

[Wayner]

I'm sure it's only a tiny bit better.  All it does is play a record just like your Technics does.   
neo

I have no doubt that it's just a bit better, but not much. I don't really care. My records sound very nice, clean and dynamic and I didn't have to buy a $30,000 table to put a smile on my face. Other faces, I'm sure are much more expensive. Good for them..

[Wayner]

Oops, sorry Brad, I was having fun typing zeros.

[galyons]

I'm sure neither one of you have been in a manufacturing environment......

Really,?    Upon what, from our posts, would lead one to this assumption?  Sorry if you disagree with my statements about manufacturing. That is your right.  But, please, defend your own production statements rather the taking ill informed "cheap shots" at those that disagree with your statements.

Geary

[Wayner]

OK, what's your manufacturing background?

[galyons]

OK, what's your manufacturing background?

Off topic and immaterial to the discussion. Please discuss/defend your statements rather than attempting to divert the thread into personal attacks.

Geary

[neobop]

Wayner,
You're asking personal questions that are none of your business.  This is a public forum.  Please stick to the subject and the response.

For the record, after I left retail I was cofounder and vice president of American Hybrid Technology, a company which you probably wouldn't approve of. 

There's no way to quantify the price/performance ratio.  What would you do, measure wow and flutter, S/N and subtract the difference?
I once read a post where you said you would like to get a Classic.  I believe you can now get one with a gimbal bearing arm.  I suspect it's a much better value.  Some people aren't looking for value, they're looking for the best.  To each his own.
neo