[mlundy57]

This may be a real dumb question/topic but I'll ask anyway.

Tweeters are usually rated to 20kHz or beyond. The range of human hearing is generally accepted to be between 20Hz and 20kHz, though I can't hear anything above 13kHz unless I increase the volume. Based on this a tweeter being able to play up to 20kHz makes sense. However, the highest frequency produced by a musical instrument is 7kHz (organ) followed by a piccolo at 5 kHz, a piano at 4.2kHz, then a violin at 3.5kHz. The human voice tops out at 1kHz for a soprano.

Based on this, why does it matter how high above 7kHz a tweeter can play? Other than a test tone, when would a tweeter need to reproduce frequencies above 7kHz? 

Mike

[Guy 13]

This may be a real dumb question/topic but I'll ask anyway.

Tweeters are usually rated to 20kHz or beyond. The range of human hearing is generally accepted to be between 20Hz and 20kHz, though I can't hear anything above 13kHz unless I increase the volume. Based on this a tweeter being able to play up to 20kHz makes sense. However, the highest frequency produced by a musical instrument is 7kHz (organ) followed by a piccolo at 5 kHz, a piano at 4.2kHz, then a violin at 3.5kHz. The human voice tops out at 1kHz for a soprano.

Based on this, why does it matter how high above 7kHz a tweeter can play? Other than a test tone, when would a tweeter need to reproduce frequencies above 7kHz? 

Mike

Hi Mike (mlundy57) and all Audio Circle members.
To me (With my 65 years old ears) your question makes lots of sense, therefore,
I am also looking for an answer to that question.
(Good one  )

Guy 13

To me, not a dumb question at all, a question to learn more...

[SoCalWJS]

In a word - Harmonics.

(I hope somebody with proper links chimes in)

Every note produced by an instrument at any frequency produces a primary harmonic that is readily heard. It also produces multiples of that frequency. The most commonly heard are 2nd and 3rd order harmonics at double and triple the frequency. The Human ear is used to hearing these harmonics. Without them, it just doesn't sound the same. If the speaker isn't capable of reproducing those frequencies, the instrument doesn't sound "right" and it's pretty obvious most of the time.

I heard a demo at a show awhile back of a "super tweeter". The regular speakers were rated to 20k Hz (more likely 15k in a typical room). The super tweeter was rated from 15k to some ridiculous number - 100k? - something like that. The difference with and without was not subtle. "Air", "Presence", and similar are the descriptors usually given for a speaker with a good tweeter.

I try to listen to well recorded cymbals as my test for top end. It can be painfully ovious if the speaker is "hot" on the top end ("bright") or poor extension ("dull" - if they're being polite "laid-back")

[bdp24]

The timbre of voice and instruments is determined by the relative strength of the overtones of the fundamental notes being sung and played. The harmonics of the fundamental tones created by a cymbal and triangle extend far above the fundamental. The environment a recording is made in also has it's own character, largely a result of it's decay time at different frequencies, also extending to very high frequencies. Also remember that a transducer's ability to play frequencies above it's bandpass affects it's ability to play frequencies within it's bandpass.

[Danny Richie]

What those last two guys said...

And the spacial cues that add air and space around instruments are way up there in those upper ranges. Take them away and the imaging really suffers, and the sound stage size and deep becomes much more two dimensional.

[bdp24]

An interesting fact is that recording engineers who place their mics far from singers and instruments (Classical mostly, in Churches, Opera Houses, and Music Halls in Europe) have to adjust the placement of their mics according to the relative humidity present during a recording. Humidity affects the properties of sound, especially high frequencies! I've noticed a softening of sounds in fog, and at the beach (sand's damping properties?!).

[mlundy57]

What those last two guys said...

And the spacial cues that add air and space around instruments are way up there in those upper ranges. Take them away and the imaging really suffers, and the sound stage size and deep becomes much more two dimensional.

So how would my (or other folks like me) perception of these attributes, imaging and sound stage be affected by the fact that at low volume levels I cannot hear frequencies above 13kHz and at normal volume levels 14kHz? If I crank the volume absurdly high I can hear a test tone up to 16kHz but at that point lower frequencies are insanely loud.

Mike

[bdp24]

Mike, that is due to your ears having lower sensitivity to high-frequencies than to mid-frequencies. Turning up the volume compensates for the lower sensitivity, raising higher frequencies above your ears' sensitivity threshold. It gets worse as we get older, and hearing loss is caused by the exposure to high SPL levels actually killing cells in the cochlea (inner ear). Humans also have lower sensitivity to very low frequencies, without any hearing damage.

[mlundy57]

So lets see, 56 years old, growing up around small arms fire, trumpet player in marching, concert, jazz and rock bands through high school, rock concerts (up close and personal in high school, more reasonable distance in college and beyond), 13 years on a factory floor and oh yeah, a veteran Army Field Artillery officer. Did I forget to mention I used to be one of those folks who jumped out of perfectly good airplanes? Maybe a 13kHz threshold isn't so bad.

This makes me wonder tho at what point my hearing would make component quality a moot point? For example, I just finished building (and have started burning in) a pair of N1X's with Sonicaps, Mills resisters and Sonicap Gen II caps by-passing every cap. I did not use platinum by-pass caps. With my hearing issues I wonder if I would be able to perceive any difference between the Gen II caps and the platinum caps.

This issue also comes into play when choosing between speaker models as well as between upgrades i.e X-MTM, X-MTM Encore, N3TL, O3, X-Static, OB5, OB7, or one of the new models Danny is working on. Given that the listening room would be appropriate for either ported, TL or OB speakers, at what point would my hearing no longer allow me to hear a difference?

It's more than a theoretical question. Today my wife told me she wants me to build a new speaker system for the living room and she wants floor standers for the mains.    Now I have to choose the model and upgrade level. 

Mike

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
At 65 years old, of course my hearing is not what is was at 30,
especially after spending 18 years in the number one country of noise.
Why spend more $ $ $ on better audio stuff, if you can't ear the difference
or can't enjoy the better sound ?
I am at that point right now.
Sometimes I wonder why I spent 400 USD on a pair of
Sennheiser HD-650
if I can't enjoy the better sound quality over what I had before.
(Sennheiser HD-570)
Well right now, I can easily tell the difference; the HD-650 are better
than the HD-570, but for how long will I be able to tell the difference
between the two?
If I need to justify spending 400 USD on the HD-650, it's because they are none fatiguing, but the HD-570 were also good to listen to for many hours.
I am at a turning point in my life where I questioned myself about every expense I make on audio equipment.
Last time I did an frequency test with GR Research V1 and could not hear above 15 Khz and below 30 Hz without increasing the volume.
Well that's live.
We have to live with that and I think I am taking it with a grain of salt. (If you know the expression)

Guy 13

[HAL]

There is more to hearing than just frequency response.

You can hear transients at high frequencies and tell the direction, like a twig breaking when stepped on.  Those are time based characteristics.  That is a different hearing mechanism than just frequency response.   

A fun check would be to take a stereo recording of white noise and run it through a single pole low pass filter with the -3dB point at 15KHz on one channel and listen to it.  Do both channels sound the same?   Move the filter to 30KHz and try again.   Where do you have to move the filter cutoff to so that you do not hear any difference?  You might want to try it with a really good pair of headphones to take room response out of the equation to make it easier.   

[mlundy57]

Hal,

Interesting idea. How would I go about constructing or obtaining such a filter?

Mike

[HAL]

You can use the program Audacity to generate the white noise and low pass filter it at the frequencies of interest.

Just make sure your DAC supports sample rates high enough to try it.  Most recent computer DAC's will do stereo 24bit/96KHz rate, so a good one to use.

 

[Danny Richie]

This makes me wonder tho at what point my hearing would make component quality a moot point? For example, I just finished building (and have started burning in) a pair of N1X's with Sonicaps, Mills resisters and Sonicap Gen II caps by-passing every cap. I did not use platinum by-pass caps. With my hearing issues I wonder if I would be able to perceive any difference between the Gen II caps and the platinum caps.

All of those things make differences well into the ranges you easily hear.

[jparkhur]

Parts of Missing Fundamental

A sound is said to have a missing fundamental, suppressed fundamental, or phantom fundamental when its overtones suggest a fundamental frequency but the sound lacks a component at the fundamental frequency itself. The brain perceives the pitch of a tone not only by its fundamental frequency, but also by the periodicity implied by the relationship between the higher harmonics; we may perceive the same pitch (perhaps with a different timbre) even if the fundamental frequency is missing from a tone.

For example, when a note (that is not a pure tone) has a pitch of 100 Hz, it will consist of frequency components that are integer multiples of that value (e.g. 100, 200, 300, 400, 500.... Hz). However, smaller loudspeakers may not produce low frequencies, and so in our example, the 100 Hz component may be missing. Nevertheless, a pitch corresponding to the fundamental may still be heard.