which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?

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G Georgopoulos

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which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« on: 15 Sep 2013, 01:30 am »
I like mosfets when it comes to damping,the speakers are playing music with authority, bjts are not bad at this but I think they lack that of mosfets...

Enough said, what do you like?,mosfets or bjts?...and why?... :green:

Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #1 on: 15 Sep 2013, 03:09 am »
It really has nothing at all to do with BJTs or MOSFETS.  The damping factor of the amplifier is purely a function of its ability to regulate a load, which is directly tied to the amount of feedback being applied at a given frequency.

Either output device can be employed into a design that features extremely high regulation (damping). 

That said, I'd still take MOSFETs over BJT simply due to the overall reliability differences between the two devices.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #2 on: 15 Sep 2013, 03:57 am »
It really has nothing at all to do with BJTs or MOSFETS.  The damping factor of the amplifier is purely a function of its ability to regulate a load, which is directly tied to the amount of feedback being applied at a given frequency.

Either output device can be employed into a design that features extremely high regulation (damping). 

That said, I'd still take MOSFETs over BJT simply due to the overall reliability differences between the two devices.

Hi Pete, :thumb:, which mosfet would you take lateral or vertical.. and why?... :green:

btw bjts are reliable too if you put a resistor at their emitter...

Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #3 on: 15 Sep 2013, 06:48 am »
Hi Pete, :thumb:, which mosfet would you take lateral or vertical.. and why?... :green:

btw bjts are reliable too if you put a resistor at their emitter...

BJTs can be reliable, but it's the 2nd breakdown that makes them less desirable to me as an output device.  That and they are more difficult to drive than MOSFETs.

I've played with a lot of vertical MOSFETs over the years and am very comfortable with them.  Haven't had the chance to play with any lateral types.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #4 on: 15 Sep 2013, 07:50 am »
BJTs can be reliable, but it's the 2nd breakdown that makes them less desirable to me as an output device.  That and they are more difficult to drive than MOSFETs.

I've played with a lot of vertical MOSFETs over the years and am very comfortable with them.  Haven't had the chance to play with any lateral types.

Pete,what do you mean by 2nd breakdown(thermal runway?),that's not a problem(resistor at the emitter and run them cool),laterals are negative temperature coefficient, similar beasts to verticals but more robust when it comes to failure

Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #5 on: 15 Sep 2013, 11:37 pm »
Pete,what do you mean by 2nd breakdown(thermal runway?),that's not a problem(resistor at the emitter and run them cool),laterals are negative temperature coefficient, similar beasts to verticals but more robust when it comes to failure

2nd breakdown isn't quite thermal runaway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_operating_area

Using multiple BJTs definitely reduces the likelihood of 2nd breakdown.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Sep 2013, 01:38 am »
2nd breakdown isn't quite thermal runaway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_operating_area

Using multiple BJTs definitely reduces the likelihood of 2nd breakdown.

Pete, when I said run them cool,that's what I meant soa with no other soa protection,I have had only one failure in over 20 years and that was from different brand fake bjt... :green:




Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Sep 2013, 02:50 am »
Pete, when I said run them cool,that's what I meant soa with no other soa protection,I have had only one failure in over 20 years and that was from different brand fake bjt... :green:

I've got a 33 year old Sansui G8000 that I believe uses BJT output devices.  It still works just fine, and sounds fantastic.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Sep 2013, 03:39 am »
Back to mosfets,I run them with bigger currents,this translates to bigger damping,seems an inherent damping of the device,and I can hear it with bass,both lateral and verticals have similar effect... :green:

Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Sep 2013, 06:58 am »
Back to mosfets,I run them with bigger currents,this translates to bigger damping,seems an inherent damping of the device,and I can hear it with bass,both lateral and verticals have similar effect... :green:

What's the loop gain of the MOSFET circuit compared to the BJT?

Have you measured the actual damping provided by each topology?

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Sep 2013, 07:14 am »
Hi Pete, actually the mosfet is a bigger amplifier with bigger loop gain,perhaps what i saw isn't quite correct,because the mosfet amplifier has a bigger power supply,more power,etc,to me bigger damping comes from a bigger amplifier,you cant increase damping from a small one(is ridicular),you can add damping if there is room in the output stage but to beef up the output stage to increase damping it comes with the requirement to make a bigger power supply... :duh:

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #11 on: 18 Sep 2013, 03:48 am »
So bigger damping means bigger amplifier (more power),most powerful amplifiers use mosfets,the actual damping is not just a figure is power (voltage and current),saying an amplifier has big damping means nothing because is just a theoretical figure it must be real power derived from the power supply,this power goes into speaker not the figure,theory also tells us zout derived from damping figure is theory too,ohms law states better the actual damping than any other formula because is real power...hope this helps... :green:

Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #12 on: 18 Sep 2013, 10:03 am »
Damping is just another word for regulation.  How well does the output stay within the theoretical gain of the amplifier as the load impedance varies.

It has nothing to do with output power levels.  A 20W amplifier can have a higher damping factor than a 500W amplifier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor#Amplifier_output_impedance

You're trying to redefine what damping means.

A higher power amp can deliver more power . . . it may not necessarily control a load any better than a lower powered amplifier.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #13 on: 19 Sep 2013, 01:32 am »
Damping is just another word for regulation.  How well does the output stay within the theoretical gain of the amplifier as the load impedance varies.



Hi Pete,to me gain regulation is the work of global nfb,it is real(voltages and currents),I could tell you how it works if I had a circuit as an example,but I guess you know what I talk about, if you could show me how zout is calculated(link perhaps)and what role it plays to gain regulation and damping I could tell you more... :green:

Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #14 on: 19 Sep 2013, 04:48 am »
You are exactly correct.  Damping, which is directly related to output impedance, is set by the amount of global negative feedback, among other things.

If you look only at the output devices, and their transfer function of voltage in to voltage out, an emitter follower (typical BJT output stage connection) will have better regulation than a source follower MOSFET output device.  However, the input impedance of the MOSFET is orders of magnitude higher than the BJT.  This higher input impedance makes it much easier to create a gain stage that has very high open loop gain. 

As an example, if the open loop output impedance of the BJT output stage is 1 Ohm, and the amp has a closed loop gain of 25dB at 100Hz, and the open loop gain of the amp is 65dB at 100Hz, then the output impedance will be reduced by a factor of 40dB.  That 1 Ohm output impedance will now be .01 Ohm.

If the output impedance of the MOSFET output stage is 5 Ohm, the closed loop gain is 25dB, and the open loop gain is 85dB at 100Hz, then the 5 Ohm output impedance is reduced by a factor of 60dB, or .005 Ohm.


G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #15 on: 20 Sep 2013, 02:28 am »
You are exactly correct.  Damping, which is directly related to output impedance, is set by the amount of global negative feedback, among other things.

If you look only at the output devices, and their transfer function of voltage in to voltage out, an emitter follower (typical BJT output stage connection) will have better regulation than a source follower MOSFET output device.  However, the input impedance of the MOSFET is orders of magnitude higher than the BJT.  This higher input impedance makes it much easier to create a gain stage that has very high open loop gain. 

As an example, if the open loop output impedance of the BJT output stage is 1 Ohm, and the amp has a closed loop gain of 25dB at 100Hz, and the open loop gain of the amp is 65dB at 100Hz, then the output impedance will be reduced by a factor of 40dB.  That 1 Ohm output impedance will now be .01 Ohm.

If the output impedance of the MOSFET output stage is 5 Ohm, the closed loop gain is 25dB, and the open loop gain is 85dB at 100Hz, then the 5 Ohm output impedance is reduced by a factor of 60dB, or .005 Ohm.

Pete,thanks I didnt know that!!!,good work mate... :thumb:

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #16 on: 21 Sep 2013, 01:03 am »
Actually I use a different formula to calculate zout but the results are similar

here it is:(numbers)

nfb factor = open loop gain / closed loop gain

then

zout2 = zout / nfb factor

where as Pete's formula:(dB)

factor = open loop gain - closed loop gain

zout2 = zout / factor

back to mosfets,actual power is their thing that makes them better consideration for big amplifiers
what does small zout mean?if it cant damp real power?... :green:



Pete Schumacher

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #17 on: 21 Sep 2013, 06:21 am »
The only damping required is from the back EMF of the drivers in question.  The speakers will only respond to the power they are given.  It doesn't matter whether the amplifier is 5000W or 5W, what allows it to control the speaker is how well it ignores impedance variations.  That said, a good power supply is required, whether the amp is 5000W or 5W.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #18 on: 22 Sep 2013, 02:09 am »
Getting a high nfb factor is tricky, you need to reduce closed loop gain and you also need to increase open loop gain, most of the time this cant be done, and you cant reduce zout, another trick you can do is beef up the output stage,this will have a lower open loop zout,for example 1 ohm now becomes 0.5 ohms,whatever nfb factor we have we use it,this will decrease zout to zout2,to big amplifiers this is inherent because their output stage is already beefed up for big power...hope this helps... :green:

G Georgopoulos

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Re: which have BETTER damping BJTS or MOSFETS ?
« Reply #19 on: 23 Sep 2013, 01:28 am »
Here I'll show you how doubling the power doubles the damping factor,let's assume both amplifiers have the same nfb factor 100,then the open loop zout for the small amplifier is 1 ohm and for the big amplifier is 0,5 ohm...

Here is the formulas

zout2 = 1/100=0.01 for the small amplifier

zout2 = 0.5/100=0.005 for the big amplifier

now for the damping factor (df),let's assume 8 ohms zload

df = zload/zout2 = 8/0.01=800 for the small amplifier

df=zload/zout2=8/0.005=1600 for the big amplifier

we have doubled the damping factor not from the nfb factor but from the greater damping that comes from big amplifiers...

cheers :green: