[Sense63]

(Found one)

I'm interested in trying a Music Reference RM10 mk2 amp out.  If you have one in excellent cosmetic and sonic condition, please let me know. 

[bernayschnecken]

Hi! I'm on the prowl for a pre-owned RM10. Did you ever snag one? If so, what's your experience been overall and specifically driving your speakers? Many thanks!

[Sense63]

I found one, but never used it.  I can't comment on how it sounds.

[enochrome]

I own one. What do you need to know? If I could say anything it does not have a vintage sound. I've owned this amp two times before (for various reasons). It has a high gain of 35db so be mindful of that; it was designed to run off a passive pre.

[Clio09]

While the input sensitivity is ideal for a passive preamp, the RM-10 was not designed for one. It was designed to work with Roger's ESL57 speakers first and foremost. I have run many different preamps with mine, including the Beveridge RM1/2 that I use now and which has pretty high gain. You can adjust the sensitivity of the amp by swapping out some resistors and capacitors if the preamp has too high gain.

[bernayschnecken]

Thanks for the benefit of your experience. I've owned the RM9mkII for over 20 years and it's still my main amp. My interest is somewhat based on curiosity and the possibility of hearing a different sonic signature in my system with the EL84's in the RM 10. The RM-10 appears to be a unique product in that Roger has been able to extract reasonable power, and not SET type power, from an EL84-driven unit. He has assured me that my speakers (88dB, 8 ohms impedance, ribbon, two-way, stand-mounted) will complement the RM 10 or vice-versa.

That said, the cost of a new unit has skyrocketed from just a few years ago to $5K. I can't see buying new at that level of investment.

[enochrome]

I have only used buffers and transformer volume controls with the RM-10 so it's good to hear Clio's experience. It's a great design and a very stable and reliable amp. Yet, as you pointed and I read a couple of weeks ago, that the price has skyrocketed to $5,000 and that is just too much. I just get the sense that he does not want to be in the manufacturing business anymore and this is the price you have to pay now for him to build one personally. Hopefully, his design skills will be utilized by another company manufacturing a more affordable product. He moved to the Bay area so maybe some tech money will come his way. Wait and see.

[JackD]

I bought both of my used amps for around $500 with the intentions of using them as mono's and then discovered that they sounded better in stereo so I sold one.  Would never consider selling the remaining one.  Great amp though not a "tubey" sounding amp at all.

[Goosepond]

Hi guys,

Obviously I haven't a clue about what I own. A couple of years ago, mostly from hanging around this place and Music Ref's circle, I bought a pair of the original RM10's and also the RM-5? pre. My intent was to hook them up as monos and I did. But since it's all gear to me, I've moved on to other various setups. So my RM stuff is now just sitting there. 

It's interesting to see this discussion, especially from people who actually understand this audio disease much better than this old fart. 

Gene

[bernayschnecken]

Goosepond,

Funny--we just visited an aviary yesterday. From one old fart to another: if you would like to offer your RM-10's for adoption, please keep me in mind. 

[Clio09]

A few things. First, Roger is very much interested in manufacturing. He has hired a team of people to address these needs. Myself included. We have more RM-10s, RM-200s, and RM-9SEs in stock now than has been the case in a long while. Now that we have a manufacturing arm and someone to run the tube store, Roger can do what he does best and design. There is a new headphone amp coming out this year, and probably a few more surprises.

Second, all transformers are now wound in house. With Roger heavily involved in the process. Roger's time and expertise is worth something, and as such costs rise. The operation is now in East Bay in Northern CA. Roger no longer runs the operation out of his house, he leases space. This costs money. The new personnel involved in the process need to be paid. This costs money. I think by now you get the point.

Finally, a dealer network is being formed. I don't have to go into details on this. Dealers need to make money too.

There are now two versions of the RM-10, although for how long I do not know. There is the original 35 watt MKII that now sports the in house transformers and a new chassis, as well as a 25 watt version with just 8 ohms taps that does not require the user to set the bias. Some of the 25 watt versions may be available for the old price of $3495. I would need to see how many we have left.

I hope that clarifies some things. Roger's designs have always been creative and well thought out, reliable, and among the best in their class. They were quite frankly under priced for many years, and some of the pricing had never been updated for many years. For those that got in on the ground floor or found Music Reference or Beveridge gear on the used market relish in the thought you got a great deal.

[bernayschnecken]

Thanks for the overview and elaboration. Roger explained the situation in a private e-mail to me and I'm considering my options.

[enochrome]

A few things. First, Roger is very much interested in manufacturing. He has hired a team of people to address these needs. Myself included. We have more RM-10s, RM-200s, and RM-9SEs in stock now than has been the case in a long while. Now that we have a manufacturing arm and someone to run the tube store, Roger can do what he does best and design. There is a new headphone amp coming out this year, and probably a few more surprises.

Second, all transformers are now wound in house. With Roger heavily involved in the process. Roger's time and expertise is worth something, and as such costs rise. The operation is now in East Bay in Northern CA. Roger no longer runs the operation out of his house, he leases space. This costs money. The new personnel involved in the process need to be paid. This costs money. I think by now you get the point.

Finally, a dealer network is being formed. I don't have to go into details on this. Dealers need to make money too.

There are now two versions of the RM-10, although for how long I do not know. There is the original 35 watt MKII that now sports the in house transformers and a new chassis, as well as a 25 watt version with just 8 ohms taps that does not require the user to set the bias. Some of the 25 watt versions may be available for the old price of $3495. I would need to see how many we have left.

I hope that clarifies some things. Roger's designs have always been creative and well thought out, reliable, and among the best in their class. They were quite frankly under priced for many years, and some of the pricing had never been updated for many years. For those that got in on the ground floor or found Music Reference or Beveridge gear on the used market relish in the thought you got a great deal.

Thanks Clio for clarifying all of that. I did not mean to pass on any misinformation. I had read that he preferred resistor based volume pots for passive volume control and that the RM-10mkII has 35db of gain which is 10db more than the average amp. I use a Slagle AVC with it and it's an awesome combination. I had read about the ESL-57 being his reference for the amp, which I forgot about, so thanks for reminding me.

I was just trying to figure out why the price jumped so dramatically where nothing on the website indicated why? I just gathered from reading interviews with him where he stated he preferred to focus on the "design process" rather than the "manufacturing process", along with his relocation, that he decided to do more personal and custom work. Due to lack of information that is not a giant assumption. As a customer of hi-fi, it does not send a good message to not alter anything except for the price on the website. At least put some indication of a restructuring or news about new product development. I hope that you would take this with some objectivity, as I hope Roger will as well. I try my hardest every day to support California businesses because that is where I was born and live.
I would hope that in the age of direct sales, like Schiit, and rapid global competition, that this awareness of the old way of hi-fi is dead, would be beneficial.

But I digress, I am glad that you clarified the process and that you are also involved with the resurgence. I read a lot of your posts that convinced me to buy a RM-10, which I thank you for.

[Clio09]

Thanks Clio for clarifying all of that. I did not mean to pass on any misinformation. I had read that he preferred resistor based volume pots for passive volume control and that the RM-10mkII has 35db of gain which is 10db more than the average amp. I use a Slagle AVC with it and it's an awesome combination. I had read about the ESL-57 being his reference for the amp, which I forgot about, so thanks for reminding me.

I was just trying to figure out why the price jumped so dramatically where nothing on the website indicated why? I just gathered from reading interviews with him where he stated he preferred to focus on the "design process" rather than the "manufacturing process", along with his relocation, that he decided to do more personal and custom work. Due to lack of information that is not a giant assumption. As a customer of hi-fi, it does not send a good message to not alter anything except for the price on the website. At least put some indication of a restructuring or news about new product development. I hope that you would take this with some objectivity, as I hope Roger will as well. I try my hardest every day to support California businesses because that is where I was born and live.
I would hope that in the age of direct sales, like Schiit, and rapid global competition, that this awareness of the old way of hi-fi is dead, would be beneficial.

But I digress, I am glad that you clarified the process and that you are also involved with the resurgence. I read a lot of your posts that convinced me to buy a RM-10, which I thank you for.

Roger hasn't updated his website in a while and I doubt he will do so anytime soon. Overall I don't really agree with the idea of a dealer network and would prefer to sell direct, but I just run the tube store so that is where I focus my time. At the same time, while some new products are coming out, the catalog is dated to some extent. The RM-10 and RM-200 have been around for a while. Both are really good amps and were undervalued for a long time. Whether they are gong to sell at their existing price tag remains to be seen. Some dealers feel they can sell them at those prices. We'll see.

Roger has always wanted to get back to a work set up like the one he had at Beveridge where he designed it and someone else built it and someone else sold it. He seems to have that now. How long it lasts remains to be seen. The school things didn't pan out as expected, but Roger does have a few students he tutors so that makes him happy. There is a wealth of knowledge he possesses and its good to see some folks taking advantage of it.

Roger's pot in the box is a nice fit for the RM-10. I used a Lightspeed Attenuator and Slagle AVC with mine. Overall though I listen to analog and I do need an extra bit of gain for low output MC. I have been fortunate to acquire an RM1/2, RM-3, RM-4 (head amp), and RM-5 (Mk III and IV) to go along with my RM-10. All told I paid about $4500 the whole lot. That's about the cost of a really good amp.