[Maritan]

 

So, without going into any details, let's just say the Denon DL-110 that was being used on the KD-770D is no more with us. I now want a good/ great cartridge to put on there.

I can spare $600-$700 for the cartridge - preferably new, but can go with very gently used. MM/ LO/HOMC does not matter - I have a preamp that can handle either. The KD-770D tonearm has a slightly higher effective mass. My trolling through the internet has unearthed a value of 17-20 grams. This makes the tonearm more suited for medium compliance carts as Neo has drummed into me. I know to calculate resonance frequency and know that it should land somewhere between 8 and 12 Hz, ideally 10 Hz.

I listen to classic rock/ rock/ prog rock with the occasional jazz record thrown in. Examples would be Led Zeppelin, any Pink Floyd record I eventually end up with, Steve Wilson and the likes. I'm looking for something that sounds neutral and lets the intent/ emotion of the artist shine through. Something that will let me rock out.

If nothing in the price range mentioned will match up to the DL110, I'm fine going back to the 110. I just want to see what my options are.

PS: Should I rename this thread "Paging Neo"? 

[JackD]

Maritan

I would suggest the Denon DL-301 Mk II.  I one both it and the DL-110 and to me it is a rather significant step.  This is the best deal you are going to find, unless you want to wait for months from Comet Supply.  They are an authorized dealer and these in fact are not "open box."  Just a way to get around the discounting restrictions Denon has.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DL-301MK2-Open-Box-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-/151087334968?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item232d81c638

If you prefer a more forward sound the AT-OC9 Mk II from LP Gear is another good option.

http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC01.html

AT needs to be loaded at around 100ohms and the Denon between 300 and 600ohms.

[neobop]

Hi Maritan,
EEK, your 110 is no more.  From the tone of your post you're looking for something really nice.  I think the arm is less than 20g, but I'm not sure.  I'd guess somewhere between 14 to 18g. 

The 301 might be a little springy for the 770.  It tracks at 1.4g .  I'm not sure, the 304 and DL-s1 are similar, but like med mass arms, so that's a definite maybe.  Compliance is at 100Hz, so it doesn't really compute.  I think those arm mass guesses are exaggerated, but I never tried a 301 on there:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDL301II.html

There is now an OC9 III that's said to be less aggressive and sound like a $1200 cart.  This would be very tempting to me.  I liked the sound of the OC9 II, but that bright edge put me off.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATOC9III.html

Then there's something like this:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-benz-micro-l04-wood-body-mc-cartridge-excellent-condition-2013-08-08-analog-78628-andice-tx

Or this:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-dynavector-dv-20x2l-low-output-moving-coil-2013-08-07-analog-44224-stow-oh

I don't see any great MMs at the moment.  Many of them might track too light for the arm, but the Clearaudios and a couple of ATs will definitely work.
Matter of fact, you could put an ATN7V stylus on your 100E, and get really nice performance.  If that cart isn't on the other table that would be a really nice backup or even main cart.  The 100E has the same motor as the 150MLX and the 7V is a good sounding stylus for heavier arms.  I'm pretty sure it will fit on there without a plastic trim, but worst case is snipping off a sliver of plastic on either side.

A used Clearaudio MM is a nice alternative and you can get a new Vivid Line stylus for $90. If I come up with anything else, I'll let you know.
neo

[JackD]

Neo

Unless I am reading the compliance specs wrong the DL-301 is a lower compliance cartridge than the 304 or the S1, plus they are both pretty low output especially the S1 at .15mv.  Another popular choice in that price range seems to be the Dynavectors. 

[Maritan]

How did I forget about JackD?

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Yes, I am looking for something nice. So far, both your suggestions have been LOMC carts. Interesting. I see that Neo thinks MM carts track too lightly so, I see why he wouldn't recommend that. But what about any HOMC cart recommendations? Do they not match up to LOMCs ?

The only reason I ask is after doing some more research my pre-amp is happier with MM/ HOMC inputs rather than LOMC. Sorry guys, can we focus on MM/ HOMC carts for now? 

The 100E unfortunately is mounted to the other table and plan is to keep it there for now.

[neobop]

Hi Jack,
Not a whole lot of difference though.  Cu 13 instead of 14 @ 100Hz. 

I've been thinking about the mass thing with the 770 arm.  It could be closer to 20g.  The arm is like a Graham Robin or a Jelco 250st.  The Jelco is a 9"/20g arm.  The 770 is 17mm longer which only adds to eff mass and there's no fluid damping.  Most medium/high cu carts don't sound their best on the arm.  I had a ruby/LC 304 and reviewed a DL-S1.  Around 14-16g arm seemed ideal for these carts despite the low VTF.  Instead of using the 770, I used an Alphason 100 S (11g) and a 3.3g lead spacer.   I really couldn't recommend it.  The 103 is another story, but I'm not into spherical styli, except maybe on a mono cart.

The only MMs I would recommend is a Clearaudio and AT7V.  You used to be able to find CAs with a busted cantilever, cheap.  But it seems they're rare since the CA/95 threads.  Other than that, a MC with a cu of 15 or so @10Hz is the way to go.  Something like a Benz or that Dynavector I linked to previously.  Here's the sales pitch:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Dynavector-20X2-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&category=270

I don't know about the 10X5.  I had a 10X4 and it was wired out of phase.   
http://www.needledoctor.com/Dynavector-10X5-Cartridge?sc=2&category=270

Tonepub said this Ortofon is a very nice cart:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-Vivo-Blue-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&category=270

For a new one, it looks like a sensible choice.   

neo

I just read your post.  I need to regroup.

[JackD]

Maritan

As to the comparison between LOMC and HOMC, the only thing I have to go by is the Denon's and the LOMC DL-301 is definitely better.  That may not always be the case, but seems to be the common thread.  Don't know what phono pre you are running so don't know what you can deal with in terms of gain and loading.  The most popular HOMC on the market for years is the Dynavector 10x5.  Never owned or even heard one so don't have a clue what there "sound profile" is.  AC member Tomytoons (Den) has owned or still owns the Dl-301, the AT-OC9 MK II and the 10x5. You might want to pm him and get his thoughts on the sound differences between the three. 

[JackD]

This is Music Directs list of the best selling HOMC's

http://www.musicdirect.com/c-556-high-output-10mv-or-higher.aspx

[neobop]

I think you should get this:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGAT95VL.html

This cart sounds so nice you won't believe how little you paid.  I have a slightly modified one on a 20g arm, well around 18g with a lighter headshell.

I'm serious.  Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference from my Virtuoso using the same HE stylus.  This Vivid Line is a hair better.   I removed the excess plastic from the stylus - CA style and it looks pretty cool.  You could get an RCM or a bunch of records with the money you save.  You might like the AT7V.  That one should work too.

I don't think the HOMC are worth it.  If something happens you're in the same boat as with the 110 except now you might have enough invested to go to a re-tipper or have it rebuilt.  If you were getting an awesome cart that might be worth the trouble.  The 95VL is for listening to music not admiring your exotic set-up.  You can try mine if you want.  Really, I have enough carts and only listen to one at a time.
neo

[neobop]

If you want a HOMC maybe the 10X5 is the best in your price range.  The Blackbird is now $1100.  Don't get a rebuilt one with a downgraded cantilever.  The original is boron.  My 10X4 would have been nice if the damn thing wasn't out of phase with itself.  This was early '80s and I didn't know what was wrong, so I dumped it.

A MC gives a little different presentation.  You had a taste of that with your 110.  I'm sure the 10X5 does everything a little better. 
My DL160 was nice, but sometimes separation seemed a little weird.  Pretty decent cart - higher cu than the 110.  I gave it to a friend who really liked it.

Here's what my 95HE looks like:







Straightforward presentation like your other MMs.  I would guess a little more finesse than your 100E if that still has the original needle.
neo
 

[tomytoons]

Neo knows his stuff and has more experience and has had many more cartridges than I have had.
Jack as well and he has my DL301/II as stated very good but low output. I will try a Denon DL304 down the road.
It is nice to have all these flavors available.

The best sound from any of the cartridges mentioned OC9ML/II, DL301/II and the Dyna 10X5 comes from the adjustment of loading resistance and also the gain. This is how you get the best from most MC cartridges. The pre has to be adjustable and I could not believe the differences just on The Dyna 10x5 running it at 1k Ohms instead of the 47k default most Phono Pre's have. Yes it  will sound OK at the 47k setting but you have to hear it at the 1k setting when it becomes totally refined top to bottom.

This is an assessment I agree with and is more eloquently put in words than I could do. It compares the OC9ML/II to the Dyna 10X5 and this I agree with only at the load settings which are not at the stock 47k on the Dyna. Dyna at 1k and the OC9 at 100 Ohms.
The Denon DL301II is excellent also at 1k Ohms.

"The 10x5 has a smooth frequency balance with no obvious peaking. The low end is deep and tight and the high end seemingly flat, but not as obviously extended as the OC9ML/II. The midrange is clean and clearly defined. I loved the way it made guitars and brass instruments sound (agreed). It is not razor sharp on transients like the low effective tip mass OC9, but it is more addicting. I dislike the overused term "tubelike", but it is the only way I can describe its smooth, warm sound. It seems ideal for playing the kind of music I listen to most of the time.
I was left with the early impression that the 10X5 has a definite sound of its own." (as most  have the Dynavector sound)
I don't think you could go wrong with the Dyna and my recommendations.

Having the Decware Zen ZP3 in your system, I'm not familiar, and not being adjustable I would stick with a MM cartridge choices.
But, the fun begins in the tuning of the MC's though.

I hope this helps a bit.

Oh, my vinyl playback now can really compete with my CD playback.

[Maritan]

Neo and JackD, as usual thank you for your feedback. Tomytoons, thank you for jumping in. JackD mentioned I should contact you, but I see you've either been prodded by him or you found this thread yourself. Thank you too.

Yes, I have a Decware ZP3 that hooks into a deHavilland UV3. I love this combination and yes the ZP3 has a standard (non-adjustable) load of 47k. I'm currently in the process of designing my own parallel resistive load for the cart to decrease the impedance seen by the cart I end up with. I'm also toying with making my own MC step up using Sowter transformers...

But, I also have a TAD-150 Signature that has a MM/ MC section that I can switch between. I was thinking about swapping the preamps out while trying a new cart. But that would be a fairly big change in the sound I'm used to now and I would have no reference (even if auditory memory is suspect at best).

The Dynavector 10X5 seems like a very interesting choice despite Neo's previous experience with the 10X4. Maybe they fixed the 10X5 since I haven't heard of this issue. Tomytoons - where did you get that review from? I guess a more pointed question would be, since you agree with that review, do you think the 10X5 is a good match for rock? I like jazz, but rock is my staple.

Finally, given the fact that I more than likely can wire up my own step up transformer with a parallel resistive load, I'm sorely temped to figure out the complexity of that project and then buy a LOMC cart after all since it seems that for sheer performance, they are hard to beat... Will take more time this way, but if I can do it, might be worth the wait.

[neobop]

Maritan,
You might want to consider a suitable inexpensive cart as a back-up.  If you're going for a MC you never know.  You might find that one of the two I'm recommending sounds better than a $500 HOMC.  This is the 7V:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT7V.html
Just a suggestion.

"I'm currently in the process of designing my own parallel resistive load for the cart to decrease the impedance seen by the cart I end up with. I'm also toying with making my own MC step up using Sowter transformers..."
If you want to reduce the load resistance to say, 1K, then get a couple of 1.02K resistors and put them across the input jacks or as a loading plug using a Y adaptor.  You can get suitable resistors at Mouser.  IRC 55 series or Vishay/Dale 1/4 watt .1% - will do the job.

If you're making a DIY step-up there's an article at VE that will tell you how to calculate number of turns for gain and how to calc resistance.

Dynevector's first batch of 10X5 had the same problem.  They've since corrected it.  Buy from an authorized dealer and they should stand by any purchase.

The mass of the arm is a slight problem.  I've only had the table a couple of years longer than you.  The best sound I've had on the table is from the Genesis 1000 (pictured left), a LOMC that weighs 4g and cu is 15, and a Virtuoso/95 - that includes the use of a transplanted ATN7V stylus.

Good luck, whatever you decide.
neo


 

[JackD]

Neo

If you are going to use a SUT don't you have to have some idea what cartridge or range of cartridges you are going to use to get the resistance right. Then when you build the SUT you are somewhat restricted to cartridges that fall in the range that you have chosen?  Never used one and now with the Vista won't have to consider it, but unless I completely misunderstood that is how you decide on the values for the SUT?

[tomytoons]

Jack that is the way I understand it too, if you are building it or purchasing it, there is a range and 2 settings.

I know Steve Deckert makes great stuff, I had his Sig mono's way back, so no doubt the ZP3 is great sounding too.

I do think the Dyna 10X5 is an all round great cartridge for the $$ and there have been no problems that I have read.
So, you could not go wrong by choosing it. Almost all comments are favorable. It has been out  quite some time and a great seller for Dynavector.
Do a search on Audio Asylum that is where the quote came from. Right up front I like the Denon's, Ortofon's, and Dynavectors. That is all I purchased except for a Benz Glider M many moons ago when the price was decent. If per chance you did not like the Dyna It would sell for practically what you paid for it. 2 years ago I got mine for $300 not used zero hours, but the owner wanted to upgrade.
There are always some low hours Dyna's floating around.

Yes, you can make loading plugs from those y-plug adaptors. There were instructions put up by John Ellison on Audio Asylum. I think I have a pair of Monster's version if you need them.
You won't be able to run an AT OC9ML/II or a DL301 for that matter, unless you have the stepup, both require at least 65db gain. Step-ups can and do sound superb, you can spend some $$ even on the parts to build one,
and You could do that over time.

As always caution in handling and setting up these cartridges, the cantilevers are mighty fine and fragile, use the stylus guard until you need to check VTF.

[JackD]

Den

No doubt Steve makes a great product, but it was designed for and limited to MM or HOMC unless you use a SUT.  I know Maritan likes a tube setup, but to me a simpler solution might be to buy a Vista and try it with whatever LOMC he chooses and see what he thinks.  If he doesn't like it he can sell the Vista for little or no loss and when he finds out the loading solution he needs then he can buy or build a SUT to match what he found for the cartridge he chooses.  To me if he liked the sound profile of the Dl-110 he will love the Dl-301 Mk II more.  If I wanted to move up the Denon LOMC food chain I would skip the 304 and move to the DL-S1. Again just my opinion and everybody else's may hear something different. I didn't like the DL-110 at 47k, but some do so we all hear differently. 

[neobop]

SUT - Yes, you guys are absolutely right.  One size does not fit all.  The two major things that must be considered are cart output and resistance.
Output can range from 0.12mV to .5mV (or so) and resistance from a few ohms to 40.  Like using a looking glass, magnification must be used judiciously or the image becomes distorted. I don't like SUTs because IMO they lose detail, especially harmonic, and trade for gain/dynamics, and that's why I don't know all the in/outs.  I've read about people varying their input resistance to get proper load, but turns ratio determines gain.  Many people have too much gain with an SUT, overload their phono input and don't know it.  It could be subtle like soft clipping.  It depends on the situation, but there will be losses nonetheless. 

Transformers in general are crap.  I'm not talking power transformers.  Why do you think some designers went to such trouble to eliminate output transformers in tube amps?  Well, sometimes they're a necessary evil like any electronic part, but not here.  You're putting a transformer on a signal measured in tenths of a mV.  When you can buy a phono pre like Vista for $300, why bother with an SUT?  If you're into high end you can probably accommodate a wide range of MCs straight in.  What's a set of Cinemags cost $1100?   No thanks.  If someone is getting good results with a SUT and likes it, good for them.  If on the other hand your budget is limited and you can't really afford the stuff you want, it makes no sense whatsoever.
neo


 

[wushuliu]

So, without going into any details, let's just say the Denon DL-110 that was being used on the KD-770D is no more with us. I now want a good/ great cartridge to put on there.

I can spare $600-$700 for the cartridge - preferably new, but can go with very gently used. MM/ LO/HOMC does not matter - I have a preamp that can handle either. The KD-770D tonearm has a slightly higher effective mass. My trolling through the internet has unearthed a value of 17-20 grams. This makes the tonearm more suited for medium compliance carts as Neo has drummed into me. I know to calculate resonance frequency and know that it should land somewhere between 8 and 12 Hz, ideally 10 Hz.

I listen to classic rock/ rock/ prog rock with the occasional jazz record thrown in. Examples would be Led Zeppelin, any Pink Floyd record I eventually end up with, Steve Wilson and the likes. I'm looking for something that sounds neutral and lets the intent/ emotion of the artist shine through. Something that will let me rock out.

If nothing in the price range mentioned will match up to the DL110, I'm fine going back to the 110. I just want to see what my options are.

PS: Should I rename this thread "Paging Neo"? 

Or get the 110 retipped by Soundsmith. Just a thought.

[neobop]

The 110 is $139 new.  The least expensive Soundsmith rebuild is $150 and takes 2 or 3 months.

Step-ups - Some people might be bent out of shape by my opinion, and that's okay.  We tend to think in absolutes, but it doesn't work that way.  It's all relative.  Due mostly to the renewed popularity of tube equipment, SUTs are more prevalent than ever.  I had a Cotter SUT many moons ago.  This thing was $1K back around 1980 and it was adjustable by re-soldering little silver jumpers under a side panel.  It's not like you can stick em anywhere, they hum and you have to move them around.  It did beat a lousy hi gain stage, but made my Kisiki sound like a disco.  I prefer going straight in, provided the phono pre is up to the task. 

Maritan,
Here's a solution you might want to consider:
http://www.hagtech.com/piccolo.html

Hagerman makes (designs) nice stuff.  Music Reference makes one that's highly regarded.  I believe it's $700.
neo

[Maritan]

That Hagerman Piccolo looks like a great deal and an excellent performer. I was not aware of this little gem. Thank you, Neo, for the heads up! I'll be buying that come Monday. And since it isn't very expensive at all, my original budget for any cart still stands.

We're back to recommendations for any cartridge type. If there are any others that you folks would like to recommend, please feel free to do so.

I emailed the guy with the Benz Micro L04 - he says he is the second owner and the cart has roughly 400 hours on it. Is it still worth the $700 he is asking?

Sorry for derailing the original question with the conflicting info I've been providing.