An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 5881 times.

WGH

An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« on: 26 Jul 2013, 03:13 am »
Alternate Title: An Interesting Comparison: Krell vs. Van Alstine

Recently we gathered at David's house for a second listening session. The first took place at Herman's house where we compared DAC's. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=117771.msg1236340#msg1236340 This second session was a mishmash of equipment swapping with a little scotch to improve our listening skills. Unfortunately David's Krell pre-amp died a few days before the meet but we went ahead as planned. Herman brought a DIY buffered line stage and I brought the Van Alstine Fet Valve Hybrid pre-amp. Sources were all over the place: a Mac mini, an Oppo 105, and a laptop with external HDD all plugged into the PS Audio PerfectWave MK II.

Amplification was by the Krell Full Power Balanced 200, Van Alstine Synergy 450,  bass was supplied by a REL Gibraltar G-2.

Speakers were the amazing Magnapan 3.7's. these 6' tall panels can fill a room with excellent sound but they only go down to 40 Hz (maybe) so a fast sub is a must have. The tweeter panels were set up to the outside for a wider, more diffuse sound stage so I didn't get to hear the pin point imaging these speakers are capable of.

David and Herman's music of choice is classical, mine is everything else but classical so it was a broad mix of clashing styles.

The first go round used Herman's buffered line stage, the sound was OK but we had volume issues. Both the Oppo and PS Audio have volume controls but not enough to suit us, I would have liked it to go louder but not to take any more time to trouble shoot we listened to music instead. Nice but no goose bumps.

The second lash up was the AVA pre along with the AVA Fet Valve Hybrid DAC, now we had volume. Our impressions of the PS Audio and AVA DAC's were exactly the same as before. Their sound is so similar that in a sighted (or blind) test it would be impossible to tell them apart. The Perfect Wave's higher price is justified because it has so many cool features, definitely check it out if you want the Swiss Army Knife of DAC's.

We decided to start the amp comparison with the Van Alstine Synergy 450. My gosh, the sound was so close to what we heard with the Krell that we had to try out a lot of different music to find out if there really were any differences. Bass was a wash because the REL did all the low stuff, turn off the REL and the 3.7's didn't go low enough by themselves to notice any difference.

After a mash-up of music ending with the Dire Straits "Love over Gold", David and I agreed that even though everything sounded excellent, what was missing was the sharp attack of a note. A politeness maybe. The leading edge was ever so slightly attenuated; not even noticeable unless you heard the Krell first. Putting the FPB 200 back in confirmed our impression, but to my ears that was all that changed. The mids, highs, and low level information seemed identical to the Krell.

We think the difference in attack is because the Krell, besides weighing 3 times more than the Synergy, runs in Class A. All of the FPB 200's 400 amps/channel (4 ohms) are ready to go instantly. David said the Krell is not kind to poorly recorded music, though never analytical the quickness and clarity can put an edge to the sound which is where the PS Audio PerfectWave filters can make a marginal recording very listenable.

I think the 3.7's like plenty of power to come alive, even though both amps are over 200 watts per channel the Krell has the braun to back it up, it is one big amp. The Van Alstine Fet Valve 600R Hybrid amp would probably be a better match to the 3.7's and give the Krell a run for it's money.

Back home listening to the Synergy 450 through the Salk HT2-TL's leave little to be desired. The RAAL tweeters are just as revealing as the Magnapan's and if there is any leading edge attenuation it doesn't show up here, but I do have a dedicated 20 amp outlet if David wants to do another comparison.  :wink:

As a side note one big difference between the amps was the heat they produced. Yes, Class A runs hot, but you have no idea how hot until you spend an afternoon with one, especially during a Tucson summer. The huge Krell amp was too hot to touch all afternoon, that sucker is a full on room heater. A+ for sound but definitely a winter amp.

Wayne

WireNut

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #1 on: 26 Jul 2013, 03:51 am »


The huge Krell amp was too hot to touch all afternoon, that sucker is a full on room heater. A+ for sound but definitely a winter amp.


 That would bug the crap out of me. Frank say's in one of his writings that heat is a components worst enemy. My 2 box preamp runs so hot I had to take the tops off for peace of mind. I haven't heard a Krell or Van Alstine but just based on cost alone and nothing else I'd have to think the Krell would be better.

 Well, live and learn, if there's one thing I've learned in all these years is that price/complexity/ lots of stuff packed inside and outside of equipment doesn't make for a better sounding component. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Van Alstine didn't smoke the Krell.



Austin08

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #2 on: 26 Jul 2013, 04:49 am »
I used to own FPB 200 and agree that it sounds super but run really HOT. One of those favorite amp that paired really well with Paradigm Studio 100 and later Thiel 3.6 and CS6.

WGH

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #3 on: 26 Jul 2013, 05:05 am »
The Krell FPB 200 first appeared around 1996-97 and retailed for about $5900, amazing sound for a 17 year old amp.


Austin08

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #4 on: 26 Jul 2013, 07:41 am »
I have own several Krell amps and preamps. IMO, Krell component produced very clean sound with high resolution in macro and micro, very well control with sheer of effortless power and a bit on cold side. I was very happy with my KRC 3 and FPB 200 till I switched over CJ Premier 14  and a pair of McCormark DNA1 mono block Rev.A. Delux edition. The later combo sound very different - more warm, involving and much more forgiving. Although, I felt a bit of lack micro and macro with CJ & McCormark. Also the Krell combo got better timbre and more snap but for some reason, the CJ & McCormark combo gave me much more musicality feeling that I was looking for.

Wayner

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #5 on: 26 Jul 2013, 12:01 pm »
I don't understand why you would use Frank's dime to promote other products. I wonder if PS Audio would promote some AVA stuff on their website?

Wayner

borism

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #6 on: 26 Jul 2013, 12:39 pm »
I respectfully disagree with your assessment Wayner. The way I am reading the contributions is as a comparison of more expensive (when available), well-regarded equipment with AVA gear and the AVA gear seems to be at least on equal footing. This helps to put the performance of AVA gear on a map for me.

Boris

WGH

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jul 2013, 02:23 pm »
How would anyone know that Frank's designs are the equal of much more expensive equipment without a comparison? I am 100% satisfied with my AVA gear and have absolutely no desire to switch.

Wayne

Wayner

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jul 2013, 02:28 pm »
I'm not saying that anything is wrong with the comparisons. Just wonder if another thread would have been better, especially when the competition's DAC gets "free advertising". Oh well, carry on.

There is a circle here called "Amplification Reviews".
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=95.0



Wayner

WGH

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #9 on: 26 Jul 2013, 02:41 pm »
OK, the last line in the offending paragraph should have read:

The PS Audio PerfectWave DAC costs $4000, that is 60% more than the AVA FetValve Hybrid DAC and since there is no discernible difference in the sound just buy the AVA DAC and put the money you saved toward music.

Wayne 

rajacat

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3239
  • Washington State
Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #10 on: 26 Jul 2013, 02:58 pm »
I don't understand why you would use Frank's dime to promote other products. I wonder if PS Audio would promote some AVA stuff on their website?

Wayner
+1

I think it's just simple etiquette not to use a given manufactures circle to run comparisons with competing products. I don't believe that there's a promotion happening here but it's just a little inappropriate when there are other circles that serve the purpose better.

ps.  I did like the comparison and it was well written and informative.

PMAT

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #11 on: 26 Jul 2013, 03:11 pm »
It's walking the tightrope but the final gist is definitely pro AVA. The Title header was right on. I'd like to see a follow up going full range with other speakers and including vinyl. If it goes to amp review circle it will get more non-AVA people to see the value. 600R going toe to toe with respected monster and you pay way less and get a new amp under warranty. It's a GOOD fight. Id also like several reviewers to post about the next get together.

Wayner

Re: An Unfair Comparison? Krell vs. Van Alstine
« Reply #12 on: 26 Jul 2013, 04:20 pm »
+1

I think it's just simple etiquette not to use a given manufactures circle to run comparisons with competing products. I don't believe that there's a promotion happening here but it's just a little inappropriate when there are other circles that serve the purpose better.

ps.  I did like the comparison and it was well written and informative.

Thank you. Yes they did a very nice job, informative.

W