[OmahawkSCM]

Hello all! I never post here but would like some assistance. I just recently, about 3 weeks ago, bought the Super 3Ts in EKO Neutral. Louis was great to deal with. So far, I love the speakers. I would say that my reference is a pair of AKG K501 headphones. They have a magical midrange that is matched by few. However, they Super 3T speakers are a great equivalent. I listen to many different genres. I don't listen to much bass heavy music. However, with the speakers, the addition of a sub was needed. For the time being, I am using a Sub-100 from Partsxpress that I had lying around.

I need a new sub to pair with these awesome speakers. My setup is a Lepai LP-2020a+ fed by a mac mini using ALAC or V0 files. The room is sealed and is roughly  12 x 10 x 10. I don't have any room treatments  but that is my next logical buy after this sub. I have been considering the following subs (in order of price low to high):

DIY 10" dayton titanic from PE
svs pb-1000
svs sb-1000
funk audio 10" sealed (sdx10)
rhythmik lv12r

These subs range from 400-600. What are your thoughts for my situation?

[srb]

I like sealed subwoofers for music.  Although they have a few dB less output and a few less Hz of low end response than their ported equivalents, I think the bass is tighter and more articulate, and makes more sense for a non-home theater application.

The SVS SB-1000 is a good choice in the ~ $500 range.

If you get a subwoofer you may also want to experiment stuffing the rear ports on the Omegas for a more gradual low end rolloff and see if that makes integration with the sub a little better.

Although the Omega 3T with its 4.5" driver and small enclosure can only produce so much bass, some Lepai owners have claimed a noticeable increase in bass output with a better, beefier power supply.

Steve

[JLM]

With your room dimensions be careful, a deep/powerful sub could easily overwhelm it and set up lots of echo (with two dimensions the same).

Refer to Floyd E. Toole's 'Sound Reproduction'.  Toole worked for the Canadian National Research Foundation (that sponsored tons of audio research) and headed up R&D for Harmon International (Harmon Kardon, JBL, TAD, etc.).  Below roughly 140 Hz sound behaves as waves, not rays.  Think of moving your hand back and forth in a shallow bathtub.  The waves travel the length of the tub and bounce back.  They interfere with each other, doubling or canceling.  At different frequencies the interference still occurs, just at different places.  That's what's happening with bass in any room (acoustic tube, just like inside a speaker cabinet).

Room treatments are minimally effective with low frequencies (which are bigger than your room).  EQ only works in a single location (don't move your head).  The solution is in a swarm (search Audio Circle).  Another option (smaller/cheaper) is this:  http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page9/page10/page10.html

But please let me (us) know what you find as I'm very interested in these speakers, but they primary use would be in a big space so anticipate they'll need bass help.

[OmahawkSCM]

If you get a subwoofer you may also want to experiment stuffing the rear ports on the Omegas for a more gradual low end rolloff and see if that makes integration with the sub a little better.

Although the Omega 3T with its 4.5" driver and small enclosure can only produce so much bass, some Lepai owners have claimed a noticeable increase in bass output with a better, beefier power supply.

Steve

Thanks for the advice regarding port stuffing. I will definitely give that a try. Should I just use a pair of socks?

Funny that you should mention a beefier power supply. I ordered one about 2 days ago. I will post thoughts after it arrives.

[OmahawkSCM]

With your room dimensions be careful, a deep/powerful sub could easily overwhelm it and set up lots of echo (with two dimensions the same).

But please let me (us) know what you find as I'm very interested in these speakers, but they primary use would be in a big space so anticipate they'll need bass help.

I was just giving rough room dimensions off the top of my head. I just measured and they are exactly 9' x 11' x 8' (ceilings). So, all of the dimensions are close, but no 2 are the same. From what you said, that's a definite plus.

I am interested how they fare in a larger room as well. I might try some experimenting elsewhere in the house later this week just for fun. Since I purchased the smallest speakers in the lineup, I would think some of the larger models (especially those with a 6.5") would do better.

[srb]

Thanks for the advice regarding port stuffing. I will definitely give that a try. Should I just use a pair of socks?

Socks work well.  I've also used rolled-up foam.  Some use soda straws to stuff a port, but that is usually more in an attempt to reduce boominess rather than subwoofer integration, and then it's not easy to determine the best length to retune the port.

Ported speakers have a sharper rolloff at the tuning frequency and the more gradual rolloff of a sealed speaker very often lets them integrate with subwoofers better.  But that comparison in general would be comparing two designs using the same drivers but different enclosure sizes (the sealed version usually ends up being a smaller enclosure than the ported version).

But its a crap shoot, and some people have found that stuffing a port may also adversely affect mids and highs.  It's just something that can be tried at no cost in one minute and you can make a determination.

Funny that you should mention a beefier power supply. I ordered one about 2 days ago. I will post thoughts after it arrives.

What supply did you order?  Always interested in cost-effective 12VDC PS upgrades.

Steve

[OmahawkSCM]

What supply did you order?  Always interested in cost-effective 12VDC PS upgrades.

PS is called "12v 6a Adapter Power Supply for LCD Monitor with Power Cord" $9.46 with prime. I ordered for the Lepai based off this review "I'm actually using this for the Lapai T-Class amp. The 2 amp power supply that comes with them is garbage, and it cuts out when you try and drive the amp hard. This plugs right into the amp with no modifications, and now I can drive it as hard as I want without any problems. This really wakes up the power of the Lapai amp."

[opnly bafld]

Enjoy your new speakers, they are really good. 

Lin

[beowulf]

Have you heard of Hsu Research?  I have heard some really good things about incorporating Mid-Bass Modules and it can be used either sealed or ported.  'Sealed' mode is for those looking for the best possible integration with the a true subwoofer, while the ‘ported’ mode should be used for the highest possible mid-bass headroom.

I have heard that for moderate volume listening the Mid-Bass Modules can really bring out some detail.

[DaveC113]

Omega will be offering subwoofers soon, I'd ask Louis about them and whether he thinks your other choices will work well.

I agree with srb about sealed subs, they are faster and overhang less... this is very important for matching them with Omega speakers.

beowulf, I agree having a midbass driver for ~50-200 Hz as well as a true subwoofer could work really well if everything is carefully integrated. If I could, I'd have a speaker with 4 RS5 drivers in front, one or two rear firing in a bipole arrangement, one or two 12" midbass drivers per side and 3 or 4 12" sealed subwoofers. It would be incredible... imo. 

[JLM]

I've been using a Hsu VTF-2 for years (mostly in my modest HT system).  It's a one or two port option sub and it works in my 14 ft x 17 ft x 8 ft family room.  The Mid-Bass modules only have an F3 of 50 Hz (the Omega 3T has an F3 of 60 Hz) and As Dave indicates, seem to be more of a tweak (adds mid/bass body) after starting with a larger/deeper sub.

I'd vote for the SVS SB-1000 too if you want/need a small sub (F3 = 24 Hz, DSP, probably well suited for the size of your room).  For cheaper look into Parts Express (don't know how their house brand or BIC compare with the SVS, but only $100 - 200).  I'd say try the 3T without a sub, but it's easy to get acclimated to no bass.  Just frustrates me to spend as much for the last octave or so than you spent on the rest of the sound and I'm afraid that an Omega sub, while I'm sure will sound great, will cost more than the 3Ts.

BTW, the ancient Greeks had acoustical design well in hand (had to minimize the echo with all those stone walls  ).  Their temples were built with a 'Golden Rectangle' ratio of 5:8 (which to western eyes is visually pleasing).  So my listening room follows that advice (modern mathematical modeling has tweaks the numbers just a bit), it's 8 ft high x 13 ft wide x 22 ft long.

Dave, you're trying to ruin the single driver mantra (the new bipole should be plenty - if we only knew how much power/output it was capable of).

[Canada Rob]

OmahawkSCM,
I would strongly recommend you scrap the sub and invest in an amp that is commensurate with the Super 3T.  You make no mention of a DAC either.  If after upgrading your amp and buying a DAC you still want more bass, then buy a Hoyt-Bedford Type 3 sub as it is voiced to go with Louis' speakers - yes a little more money, but a no brainer.  Also, have you put about 100 hours on your speakers? - if not, wait, they will flesh out and the bass will improve, and so will everything else.

My son (in his bedroom) has a pair of Super 3T's with a Firestone Big Joe amp and a Pure iPod digital out dock with DAC and it sounds unbelievably good.  I removed his amp and dock/DAC and put in a Glow Audio Amp One and Glow Audio DAC and it transformed the system in every way, not to mention bottom end was improved, even though the Amp One has less power. 

I also ran the Super 3T's in a 25' x 13' x 10' high room shooting across one end with a Decware Super Zen Select amp (1.5 w/ch into 8 ohms) and Audio Sector DAC and the bottom end was amazing, not to mention everything else.

Invest in better source components, because with the gear you have, you haven't even heard your speakers yet.  My first recommendation would be the Glow Audio Amp One with Glow Audio DAC One external DAC.  Together they sell for $840 US and I don't know of a better bargain in audio.

[OmahawkSCM]

OmahawkSCM,
I would strongly recommend you scrap the sub and invest in an amp that is commensurate with the Super 3T.  You make no mention of a DAC either.  If after upgrading your amp and buying a DAC you still want more bass, then buy a Hoyt-Bedford Type 3 sub as it is voiced to go with Louis' speakers - yes a little more money, but a no brainer.  Also, have you put about 100 hours on your speakers? - if not, wait, they will flesh out and the bass will improve, and so will everything else.

I am actually very keen on this idea. I mean, if I can save some money by not buying a sub, that is great! I don't mention a DAC because, without starting an argument, I don't really feel they make that much of a difference. Also, I've heard that the DACs in mac minis are pretty good. Lastly, I bought the 3Ts as a "floor model" from Louis. He stated that they have about 50 hours on them. I probably put another 20 on them so far. I would love it if the bass strengthened up with more usage.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[JLM]

Agree with both of you (Rob and OmahawkSCM).  Synergy (particularly between amps and speakers) is the great mystery of audio: hard to predict.  Either go with what others have found (that hopefully you relate to) or flounder on your own (a potentially long/expensive/frustrating struggle).  I'm a 'speaker guy' too and don't 'believe' in serious investing in DACs (I know garbage in garbage out and once polluted it can never be cleaned up downstream), but DAC technology is changing every month and most of how your system sounds is a factor of the speakers. 

CLARIFICATION: Please keep my DAC comment above with 'reasonable' terms (obviously nearly any separate DAC will significantly outperform a standard computer output and any recently designed mega-buck DAC should outperform what now-a-days passes for affordable DAC), but there are many overachieving affordable DAC currently available.

Starting with good speakers was a wise choice.

Care should be taken in selecting the proper tube amp as they can exaggerate (bloat) bass (again a synergy thing).  Might work as a subwoofer substitute for some, but flabby bass gets 'old' long term and would make blending with a sub more difficult.  No 'need' to hurry in this great hunt.

Please keep us posted of your progress along your audio journey.

[Canada Rob]

OmahawkSCM,

If you are running uncompressed files on your computer and decent USB cable, interconnect, and speaker cable, a good (not necessarily expensive) DAC will be a HUGE improvement over the computer's sound card.  You will then need an amp good enough to pass that improvement on to your speakers.  If you have a lousy source (IE: the computer's onboard sound card) the rest of the downline equipment will suffer from the poor fidelity of that sound card.  It's called the audio hiererarchy: source first, then amp, then speakers (with good cabling in between, of course).  Your Super 3T's are thoroughbreds as far as speakers go and will clearly reflect any upline changes, good or bad.  Contrary to popular opinion, upgrading DAC and amp can often give a more dramatic improvement in the sound than upgrading the speakers alone would do.  Even though the Super 3T would be considered a budget speaker price wise; in reality it is anything but.  The saying, "you get what you pay for" holds true most of the time, but in my years in audio I have seen that principal overthrown many times where an inexpensive product outperforms a much more expensive one.  I would compare the (hand built in America with American made driver) Super 3T not to another $500 "budget" speaker, but with the likes of the $2500 47 Lab Lens. 

Also, do not plug the bass ports on your Super 3T's.  Louis told me they will only go down to 160 Hz with the ports plugged.  With ports unplugged they will blend seamlessly with any good sub, especially a sealed sub.  Some speakers are designed to be able to operate with plugged or unplugged ports like the Hoyt-Bedfords, but no 4.5" driver Omega of any vintage should have it's port plugged.  If in the unlikely event you do get bloated bass, look at the other components in your system, speaker positioning, or room acoustics.

[Louis O]

Hi OmahawkSCM,

Many thanks for your post and this is a great place to get excellent advise. You're going to find that the speakers performance is also part of a system approach and JLM and Canada Rob is putting you on the right path. I do appreciate the posts greatly.

No need to spend the big bucks on the gear and there is some excellent pieces that will amaze you.

Many thanks Lin for the kind words and soon I have some important news regarding driver development. Something I have been working on for a long time.

Thanks,
Louis