[MaxCast]

Going to look at a Denon table df-47f (rosewood base) with a Linn k5 cart for $175 and looking for you guys to talk me out of it. 
This is what I think I know.  These denon tables are great when they work but expensive to repair (if they can be).  The workings of the platter and the Q damping system must be in good order for the table to function correctly.
The mm cart seems to be a re-bagged AT and a ATN95 stylus may fit for replacement. 

I will be able to test the table but not listen to it.  It is fully auto so I would start a lp, try the locate feature, and look for it to return at end of lp.  Check the strobe for speed lock.  I need to look for a good arm shot so I can check to see if anything is missing on there.

I figure the cart is basically a throw away unless it is straight and sounds half way decent.  The table probably deserves a better cart anyway.

So, that you think?  epay says $200 for as is to 500 for the shiny perfect ones.

[pumpkinman]

FWIW
I was looking at one a few years ago and a friend of mine who goes by the handle "Thorens Junkie"
warned me to stay away from it. He talked about speed control issues and stated certain parts were
simply not available. They really are beautiful tables.

Take this with a grain of salt..............Bill

[JackD]

The DP-47f is a great TT if it works as advertised and yes it looks great.  The Linn cartridge which is a rebadged AT-95e is a bad fit under any circumstances for that arm. If the TT works as advertised when you run it through it's paces I would buy it and replace the cartridge with something like you have on the JVC.  Just my opinion and yes all of these 30+ year old Japanese automatic TT's can fail.  I do however have seven of them and none of them have failed yet.

[MaxCast]

Well....I bought it.      I figure I can sell three of the "lesser" tables I have accumulated and just about pay for this one.

Here is a quick shot as it is still in my truck.


Will be looking for a new cartridge or fitting one that I already have.  Jack mentions the Linn/AT 95 is not a good match.  My question now is why and what should I be looking for.  I would like to stay with a mm at this time.  I think I read it is a low mass arm which requires a high compliance cart.  I have one or two that I will list when I get home to see if they will work.

It started up and qued fine but the locate feature took a couple back and forths to go to the end of the record.  On the second start of the record the arm needed a slight nudge to continue.  Third and fourth went fine.  Hoping it will work itself out or a little clean/oil may be in order.

Off to download the manuals.

[JackD]

Rich

The AT-95e is a pretty low compliance cartridge as AT's go especially compared to the 120e or 440mla.  It will work however with that low mass arm if you want to try it because of the Denon's Q-damping.  If you still have the M91/SAS and the stylus itself is good you might want to look into picking up another M91 body from Ebay and trying that. That stylus should also fit the electronically identical M75 body.

[Russtafarian]

Will the platter controls on these Denon tables continue to work if the arm and servo circuitry are replaced with a standard tonearm?

[MaxCast]

Russ, I can't answer that question as I am not at the point of tearing a table down.  My next lab exercise will to gain the confidence to solder new wires with nicer jacks to my tables. 

Jack, I have a Shure M91 ED with a jaco.  Is that considered high compliance?  How does one know which carts/stylus are high compliance.
I don't understand the need for a new 91 body or the 75 body.

The Linn is not sounding too bad after two lps.

What is inside the 47 plinth?  Is there room for a clay job?

[JackD]

Rich

I thought you said a while back that the M91 was dropping a channel and you thought it was dead.  All the SAS styli are considered high compliance as were all of the Shure NOS ED and HE styli.  With MM's and MI's simple rule of thumb is that the lower the VTF range is the higher the compliance is.  Most all of the advanced stylus shapes like the micro-lines are high compliance. 

Try spraying De-oxit in all of the controls on the front panel and then work them.

The factory IC's on my DP-62L are very nice and have a low capacitance figure of 90pf.  See no need to change them.  If you decide to the best reasonable price option seems to be the Blue Jeans Cable one.

[JackD]

Also your 8MZ is high compliance.  Never taken the bottom off of the Denon so don't know how much room there would be with all of those electronics. 

[neobop]

The Linn is not sounding too bad after two lps.

Nice little table.  Not so little really, but compared to its big brothers the 59L, 62L etc, it's little.  If the arm continues to hesitate and is reluctant to go through the motions, you might want to take the bottom off and clean and lubricate the mechanical connections.  I suggest silicon spray which is also used as a cleaner.  If you're turning it sideways or upside down, don't forget to first remove the platter and secure the arm.

The K9 is a nice sounding cart with a balanced sound and yes, compliance is rather low - made for a med mass arm, it's 15cu.  Does bass seem deficient?  If you want a nice 3 mil elliptical replacement that tracks at 1.5g, you can buy an AT92ECD on epay for $21.  Remove the stylus and cut back the plastic sides with a wire cutter.  Works like a charm and if you want, you can remove all the plastic except the plug that fits into the body, for the Clearaudio look.  Before you do this you might want to make sure the stylus isn't glued in.  It should pull almost straight out from the body.

I used to sell these in '86 so it's probably not 30 yrs old, but no spring chicken either.  Once everything functions as designed you'll probably get many yrs of service and the sound is remarkably good.  It compares well to those more expensive big brothers.  Good luck.
neo

[MaxCast]

Thanks guys for your replies.
Jack,  I put the 91 on a Pioneer PL-500 and it was working fine    I think I have an issue with the JVC as I have a bit of hum which I feel is from the Grado.  Leaning towards a week solder joint at the IC but not sure which end.  I will probably try the 91 on the Denon first. 

For clarity, lower VTF figures are at what range?
Is there a recommended alignment for these arms?

The table has not skipped a beat with arm control but a little De-oxit probably won't hurt.  The above pic is pretty bad.  It looks much better than that.  I'll get another shot soon.

Neo, It is a K5.  Yes, a little bass shy.  It actually sounds pretty good for what it is so I don't think there is anything wrong with the Linn.
Date code is 8704
Hard to imagine what the bigun's look like in person.  Pics on the web make be want to touch, hear and own one but I was lucky to find this guy local for a buck-fidy.

[JackD]

Rich

To me lower VTF's are in the 1-1.5 gram range.  This is the range for many of the high compliance cart's from the 70's and 80's like your Shure. 

As to alignment, most of the TT's from that era use Stevenson as there baseline though Baerwald  will work fine if you have enough room in the head shell slots.  I think the shortcut for that TT is 35mm and square in the head shell. 

I use Mother's Brazilian on all of my wood veneer TT's and it is fairly cheap from Advanced, Autozone or Wally World. 

As to the Grado hum I have never heard it on any of my Japanese DD's including all five of the JVC's so I would suspect you have a wiring issue somewhere even if it is as simple as the head shell wiring. 

As to the Q-Damping I usually run it at about 75% of the VTF.

Let me know if I can be off anymore help.

[WireNut]

Well....I bought it.      I figure I can sell three of the "lesser" tables I have accumulated and just about pay for this one.

 






 

[neobop]

Well....I bought it.      I figure I can sell three of the "lesser" tables I have accumulated and just about pay for this one.

Here is a quick shot as it is still in my truck.


Will be looking for a new cartridge or fitting one that I already have.  Jack mentions the Linn/AT 95 is not a good match.  My question now is why and what should I be looking for.  I would like to stay with a mm at this time.  I think I read it is a low mass arm which requires a high compliance cart.  I have one or two that I will list when I get home to see if they will work.

It started up and qued fine but the locate feature took a couple back and forths to go to the end of the record.  On the second start of the record the arm needed a slight nudge to continue.  Third and fourth went fine.  Hoping it will work itself out or a little clean/oil may be in order.

Off to download the manuals.

Wondering how this is coming along.  Also wondering about those slots in the mat.  They're for the optical sensor - that cylinder near the tonearm.  This is for determining record size with auto start.  Will the table function at all if the mat is replaced with a regular slotless one?  Some other tables with similar optical sensors go crazy if the slots are covered.  When started, the arm goes back and forth like it can't decide where to land.

I looked up the K5 cart and it is not an AT-95 variant.  Not exactly sure what it is.  Sorry, I gave you advise based on the 95. 
Are you using the M91/SAS?
neo

[MaxCast]

All is well with the table.  You are correct about the mat.  I think it would play LP's just fine with an aftermarket mat.  The OM states that if you are playing clear vinyl you may have to rotate the mat 90o to cover the sensors.  Guessing that if both slots are covered the sensors think it is a 12 incher.  Would like to try a herbies mat, one that would fit the JVC and Denon but I think they are different thicknesses, and, I keep buying tables. 

I have installed the 91ED/SAS.  I set it to track at 1.5 per instructions.  Did not check with a scale.  I find it similar in sound with the JVC, bass heavy.  Last night I also noticed what I will call needle noise.  Playing The Wall I noticed noise in between tracks that sounds like a needle playing nothing.  The 91 was bought used so I don't know the history but I am finding I'm not a big fan of Shure.  From this cart and a couple other cheaper Shures I replaced needles on.
Need to get a scope I guess and check out that tip.  This weekend I will put the Grado/8MZ on there and see how that checks out.

One more thing.  I noticed this Denon seems to do better with inner groove distortion than the JVC.  Need to find that pesky protractor and check alignments.

That AT95 advise stemmed from me as I read a couple threads that said the 5K was a re-bagged at95 

Thanks for asking 

[dlaloum]

Just a short note:

the standard leads on these are low capacitance, if replacing them make sure you get as low cap cables as possible.... there are many ways of increasinig cap. but none that are easy for reducing it!

Getting capacitance right is a standard part of loading for cartridges.

Your Shure probably needs a bit more or less capacitance to tweak its voicing....