[jarcher]

I know this is somewhat overlapping a recent topic, and probably has been asked ad nausea : but I always find it fun to respond to similar inquiries, so here goes:

Have a Conrad Johnson MV75A1 on the way & thinking about getting a matching phono preamp in the same budget : i.e. $750 or under.  Part of my experiment to see if I like tube amplification, pre-amplification, or both with my magnepan 1.7's.

I don't need a lot of inputs or bells & whistles : really just the one for the DAC & another for phono.  Have a stronger preference for something that also includes a decent MM phono stage : doesn't have to be great : TT in that system is an older pioneer direct drive w/ Grado Black w/ supped up needle (MCV Z). I don't expect remote control, as nice as that would be.

Obviously I'm sorta leaning towards CJ as they have been known to make such great preamps.  Probably whatever is the newest in my price range to possibly slightly reduce the risk of repairs.  E.g. a PV10A (?) 

Here are some things going for sale @ audiogon that caught my eye to help opinions get rolling, but I'm open minded to other recomendations.  If you have any opinions about correct market value, that would be appreciated as well.

Counterpoint SA3.1 w/ phono stage @ $495.  The slim profile is nice, though I know little to nothing about Counterpoint other than the name seems vaguely familiar as respected.

Audio Electronic Supply AE1 @ $500. This was a budget line of Cary, no? Don't know how I feel about the cosmetics, but at this price range, beggars can't be too choosey. 

Sonic Frontiers SF1-L @ $625. I have a SF phone preamp I like a lot and the build / parts quality is amazing.

Audio Research SP9 @ $800. Always loved the cosmetics of these & wanted to own an AR preamp, but the original SP9 seemed to have gotten a negative stereophile review.  Also a bit prejudiced about the AR sound as being a bit too solid state.  But MKII / III that corrected early problems would seem to be out of my price range (?). 

Conrad Johnson PV10A w/ phono stage @ $850.  This is what I'm leaning towards, though slightly concerned the bass may be too tuby & the overall sound perhaps not resolving enough.  Seems PV10's go for as low as $500 & sold new for $1000.  But considering condition + phono stage, maybe $650 is the right offer?  Thoughts?

Thanks again to all for help so far.

[JakeJ]

Well, I'll be first and recommend the cj primarily because my experience has been you'll get the best synergy by sticking with the same mfr that made the amp you just bought.  Ran a PV-7 with both SS and tube amps and it gave the systems I used it with the extra life live performances have plus a common sonic character that let me judge other components that rotated in and out.  Really like cj's phono sections.

I agree with your assessment of the AR pre, I think you will find it a bit on the dry side.  I would take the SF1-L as my second choice.  Don't have any experience with AE or Counterpoint.  Just my .02 and it comes with one of those little packets of salt. 

[raindance]

I have heard folks have success with the PV10a. I believe it is a fairly simple design. I can't find a legible schematic to look at though. The PV12 was a stunningly incompetent design by tube theory standards at least where the tubes are run at very low operating points - very non linear and colored and hard to find tubes that work.

The CJ house sound is fairly colored toward the relaxed, rich, tubey side of the spectrum.

[raindance]

PS: not sure about the MV75, but some of the CJ tube amps need more voltage swing than typical amps to get to full power. The best combo I have heard was using a mu follower preamp with a CJ vintage power amp; the combo of a relatively neutral pre with large output swing and the tubey sounding amp made for a delightful result. I'd be careful about mating too many tubey sounding things together.

[mdfoy]

I can highly recommed the Musica Bella "LeAnna" Econo Tube Linestage.  I think there is a special on it that may put it in your range. 

[bside123]

Perhaps the Eastern Electric Minimax Linestage if you can find one used.

[hibuckhobby]

If you can find a SAS 10a or a 7a used, they punch way above their weight class.
As far as ARC...an SP9 Mk II or III is an excellent piece, has a good phono stage and
responds well to tube rolling.
Hibuck....

[HAITIMAN]

Musica Bella "LeAnna" Econo Tube Linestage
Wow! I'd like to hear this one.

[rollo]

The Sonic Frontiers IMO is a classic. Neutral for a tubed preamp. Punchy, great bass and a natural midrange. The CJ is just more colored. Colored rich with weight and slam.


charles

[jarcher]

Thanks guys : keep the suggestions coming! Added comments / suggestions on market prices also welcomed.

I considered the Musica Bella "LeAnna" Econo Tube Linestage, particularly as they are offering them new @ $700.  And I'm sure as good as the build & sound is, I have to admit the cosmetics are just too home-brew for me. I wish I was less shallow that way, but I do like gear that sounds good first, but also meets a minimal cosmetic level.

Not to say that earlier CJ stuff is exactly cutting edge cosmetics, but even though it runs more towards the functional aesthetic, it still looks & feels good enough to not feel too let down.

At the moment my shorter list seems to be :

1) A CJ 10 or 8 (11 probably out of my price range) w/ phono stage
2) A Sonic Frontiers SF1-L.  Love those SF looks and build quality, and guess it's going to be a bit more neutral than the CJ. 

And the new darkhorse : Steve Ford's AVAStar!  Probably the best of the three honestly, and the one least likely to give me trouble.  One hold back is an irrational preference for the more tubey T8, though sonically that may be inferior.....

Trying to also stick a bit more to the re-saleable brands in case things don't work out or I get the upgrade bug........

[SteveFord]

Oh, just buy one of each and get it over with!
Wouldn't that be great?  Get a Lazy Susan type carousel and if it's Tuesday it must be Sonic Frontiers day...

If I ever strike it rich (this seems to be more and more unlikely) that's what I'd do.

[Quiet Earth]

There is a Quicksilver Full Function preamp listed there right now. That preamp is the right vintage and style to go with your amp, plus it has plenty of gain and tube goodness,,, all things considered (age and price). Yes it has MM phono too. 

Quicksilver is generally well made and lasts a very long time. Stay away from Counterpoint unless you know that a non-Counterpoint tech has gone through it and repaired all of the design flaws.  . No harm intended, just a heads up for those who have never owned new Counterpoint gear.

[jarcher]

Oh, just buy one of each and get it over with!
Wouldn't that be great?  Get a Lazy Susan type carousel and if it's Tuesday it must be Sonic Frontiers day...

If I ever strike it rich (this seems to be more and more unlikely) that's what I'd do.

So true : though reality has limited the options (for now) SFL-1 has disappeared from A'gon : sold? @ $625 asking seemed like a helluva good preamp for the $.

[jarcher]

There is a Quicksilver Full Function preamp listed there right now. That preamp is the right vintage and style to go with your amp, plus it has plenty of gain and tube goodness,,, all things considered (age and price). Yes it has MM phono too. 

Quicksilver is generally well made and lasts a very long time. Stay away from Counterpoint unless you know that a non-Counterpoint tech has gone through it and repaired all of the design flaws.  . No harm intended, just a heads up for those who have never owned new Counterpoint gear.

This looks like a good choice, but fails to meet my superficial cosmetic requirement.  Crazy power supply on that thing - I wonder if it's really warranted?

Counterpoint reliability (or lack of) is the other thing I seem to vaguely remember about the brand.......

[DustyC]

PS: not sure about the MV75, but some of the CJ tube amps need more voltage swing than typical amps to get to full power. The best combo I have heard was using a mu follower preamp with a CJ vintage power amp; the combo of a relatively neutral pre with large output swing and the tubey sounding amp made for a delightful result. I'd be careful about mating too many tubey sounding things together.

  Good point Raindance. The MV75 needs 2.35 volts for full power output. That's one of the higher input voltages I've encountered. My PV-5 drove them well enough.

[JakeJ]

Having owned a Quicksilver FF preamp I'll vouch for it's sound and build quality.  Sonically probably leans more to what the Sonic Frontiers has been described as.  Damn fine ultra-wide bandwidth design.

[Ericus Rex]

Counterpoint reliability (or lack of) is the other thing I seem to vaguely remember about the brand.......

There was never a reliability issue with Counterpoints earlier (i.e. full tube) preamps like the 3.1, the 5.1 or the 7.1..  The issues you've heard of are all with their hybrid designs and many of their amp models.  I have owned the 3.1 and the 5.1 and a friend of mine had the 7.1 (their entry level pre...though the numbering suggests the best of the three...).  I had the 5.1 for many years but never felt it fit exactly right in my system.  To my great dismay, my friend's Rogue Metis (and entry level 6SN7 based pre) bested it in every way so I promptly sold it and bought a Rogue 99.  Personally, I would recommend the Metis or (if you're looking for a classic syrupy tube sound) a classic CJ pre over the Counterpoint.  I have heard the 3.1 sound awesome in another friend's system but I was never able to get the same results in mine...despite lots and lots of tube rolling.  In the right system they can sound great; magical and a bit more neutral sounding than some other 'classic' designs.

[Quiet Earth]

Well, I bought the Counterpoint 5.1 and SA2 moving coil pre-preamp brand new back in the '80s and they both had design issues that needed fixing. It wasn't so much the actual repairs that I minded, because I eventually got them fixed (by someone else) and went on to enjoy them for many years. It was the stuck-up, arrogant attitude of the company that completely blew me away. They really went out of their way to make me feel like a complete idiot for owning their products. I was much younger back then, so it was a very good lesson in how not to treat people.

But in the end they didn't last too long (the company) and all of those preamps are probably fixed by now anyway. I think they would have to be or they wouldn't be working at all.

When the Counterpoint power amp blew up, I just sold it as is and moved on to Quicksilver. I never had an issue with their products.

[jarcher]

Hey guys : ended up pulling the trigger on the CJ PV10A previously mentioned on A'gon.  Steve Ford's AVAStar and the Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 were place & show, either of which is probably on paper the better preamp vs the CJ10A for the money (as would potentially be a CJ PV11 or PV12 for similar money).  I did realize though that I wanted to try out the somewhat warmer more euphonic older CJ sound, particular in experiments w/ a Krell Showcase amp that often tend somewhat in the opposite direction.

The following factors did it for me for this deal:

1) Good built in phono stage
2) Excellent condition
3) Good complement of tubes
4) Re-saleability if I feel I need to sell it on
5) Market correct price ($725 including shipping in double box including new CJ box + manual)

I failed to act faster on an Ebay CJ Classic that sold just under $700, but that deal I think was an anomaly.  I'd expect a classic to get more like $1K.

Anyway - it's been fun + I think / hope this topic will be useful to others in the same boat as me (i.e. looking for recommendation on a budget tube preamp).

These are the tubes that come with it:

(2) 12AX7a RCA grey plates
(1)12AT7 Telefunken
(2)12AU7 Brimar

The 12AX7 + 12AT7's are for the phone stage.  The 12AU7 for the line stage. 

Anyone have any opinion on Brimar?  Relatively new name for me.  Was thinking if I could get a pair at reasonable $ I'd get some Mullards 12AU7's, though some out there are saying sometimes Brimars are re-badged Mullards.......?

[SteveFord]

Let us know how you like it.