Up off the ground

SteveFord · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 Jul 2013, 09:35 pm »

Glad you talked me into it - I raised them up about another 2" and much more better!
I went to turn the sub down and it wasn't on, ha, ha.
That's as high up as I can go as otherwise the center of the panel will be above my earbones when I'm sitting down.
Gotta go, construction project is in order!
No wonder the wife thinks I'm nuts.

Maritan · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 Jul 2013, 10:05 pm »

I concur with your wife. You are nuts. Now, would you please go perform some extensive experiments on the 1.7 and let us know what you find? Not all of us own 3.7s and not all of us are bat-shit crazy like you (in the nicest way possible

) to try these "insane" experiments out.

SteveFord · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 Jul 2013, 10:59 pm »

I'll have to lug them downstairs as they're pretty close to the ceiling up there.
I did try them downstairs when I first got them and they sounded too puny for the room - Frank Zappa came out sounding like the dwarf version Ringo Starr played in 200 Motels...
They sound perfect upstairs, though. The entire quest has been to make the big system downstairs sound as good as the little system upstairs. I have suffered the torments of the damned but I finally got there!

It would probably be best if you tried this in your own room. Grab some old hardcover books, stick them under the feet and see what you think.

jult52 · « **Reply #23 on:** 26 Jul 2013, 01:42 pm »

Steve - You placed the speakers on wood, which is a nice absorber of vibrations. My immediate assumption was that the absorption was the primary factor improving the listening experience, especially because you were pointed to increased detail as one of the benefits.

I have had mixed experiences with vibration-control devices but my two efforts on that front with my (gunn'd) MMGs have been very beneficial tweaks: spikes under the speakers and absorption pads under the crossover boxes. My conclusion is that treating the vibration of Maggies should be a major objective for all owners.

rw@cn · « **Reply #24 on:** 26 Jul 2013, 05:15 pm »

Somewhere in the SH Forum Barry Diament discusses how and why he raised his 3.7s. Here is a picture of his rig from his website http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/index.htm

SteveFord · « **Reply #25 on:** 26 Jul 2013, 11:34 pm »

I don't know, I wonder if it doesn't have more to do with getting them up above the carpeting.
I needed the carpet to keep the room from being too "live" sounding but maybe I got too much of a good thing with the damping.
Audio is such a strange hobby and the results are oftentimes totally unexpected.

Seeing as nobody had any input, I ordered the Pink Floyd BBC Sessions on vinyl tonight so I guess that I'll be the guinea pig.

SteveFord · « **Reply #26 on:** 31 Jul 2013, 11:50 pm »

I couldn't stand the fugliness that are some old boards used to hold the stands up so I bought eight bun feet,

cut down the posts with a Dremel, drilled some holes in the top board and screwed them in.
They even have hard plastic feet on them for sliding the speakers around on hardwood floors.
I'm very pleased with the results, you can get them here if anyone is interested:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&me=A1VTUOJZSCT7K8

SteveFord · « **Reply #27 on:** 1 Aug 2013, 08:47 pm »

By overwhelming demand, here's how these look.
I'm sure you've seen them on sofas, ottomans, etc.
Now you've seen them with 3.7s.

pelliott321 · « **Reply #28 on:** 5 Aug 2013, 04:39 pm »

I think that looks great
one comment:
is there any soft material between the maggy metal feet and the wood. If there is the you are not getting good coupling to the wood base.

SteveFord · « **Reply #29 on:** 5 Aug 2013, 09:23 pm »

Yes, there is but right now I'm very, very busy with other things so haven't played around with stereo stuff in a bit.
I don't know if coupling is an issue, anyway - remember the Wendell quote about they'll sound the same if you hang them from the ceiling.
Maybe later I can screw around but not tonight as I have bigger fish to fry.

jlafrenz · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 03:51 am »

Since I picked up a pair of MMG's a while back I have come across a few threads stating that the MMG's should be raised off the ground. It made a lot of sense to me as I felt the vocals were almost hitting me in the knees when listening to them. I do listen nearfield if that matters to anyone. I have been experimenting with the height of them and tonight I tried to A/B as best I could at different heights. Using cinder blocks, I raised them 8 inches and then doubled them so the MMG's were about 16 inches off the ground. There certainly is a difference between the 2 heights.

At 8 inches I felt that there was the best bass response and a the vocals were a bit more forward. Some of the instruments still seemed to be a bit low in terms of physical height. It was as if the platform I was sitting on was on the same plane as the band was playing. Raising them to 16 inches I found that the sound stage opened up a bit and became wider. The speakers seemed to disappear and things also became a bit more cohesive. Instruments now seemed to be physically higher in the space like I was at a small concert and the band was raised just slightly on a platform or stage. The trade off was that there was some congestion in the vocals and I lost some of that punch. I need to play around with them some more and find a way to try heights in between 8 and 16 inches. I also need to try with the sub on to see if some of that punch can be made up for and listen with the tweeters out to see if the sound stage can be widened. Lots of variables to test.

rollo · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 02:53 pm »

Quote from: SteveFord on 23 Jul 2013, 09:04 pm

It's something to do with the floor but what, I'm not quite sure.
What you did with my old IIIAs shows that you've raised the panel quite a bit (more than I have).
Wendell is real good at dropping hints and he has said numerous times that trying to anchor them to the center of the Earth and adding mass isn't the way to go.
He also said that you can hang them from the ceiling and it will make no difference in the sound and that's been kind of in my thoughts for a while.
You know that they've tried everything under the sun at the factory over the years.
They also have a 20.7 base coming out sooner or later for the 3.series which I would have bought but got too impatient for them to put it into production and I was too cheap to buy Sound Anchors.
Maybe later on this week I'll screw around with raising them up a bit more, it won't take but a few minutes to raise them up a bit.
Ah, what the hell, I'll do it now!

Si senor the floor it is. Suspended wood floor ? If so no try decoupling the new base from the wood floor. recently with a similar floor construction my client installed Herbie's carpet sliders under the spikes and the results were quite impressive.
The new bases added mass and helped defeat the suspended floor resonance decoupling will further improve that scenario. Give it a try Herbie has an excellent return policy.

charles

titaniumheads · « **Reply #32 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 07:35 pm »

I made my own copying style of the 20.7s from 2" maple workbench stock and painted them. I also own a metal fab shop and made different steel supports to stiffen them up and got rid of the flimsy stock ones.

MGbert · « **Reply #33 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 10:05 pm »

Quote from: jlafrenz on 4 Mar 2014, 03:51 am

Since I picked up a pair of MMG's a while back I have come across a few threads stating that the MMG's should be raised off the ground. It made a lot of sense to me as I felt the vocals were almost hitting me in the knees when listening to them. I do listen nearfield if that matters to anyone. I have been experimenting with the height of them and tonight I tried to A/B as best I could at different heights. Using cinder blocks, I raised them 8 inches and then doubled them so the MMG's were about 16 inches off the ground. There certainly is a difference between the 2 heights.

At 8 inches I felt that there was the best bass response and a the vocals were a bit more forward. Some of the instruments still seemed to be a bit low in terms of physical height. It was as if the platform I was sitting on was on the same plane as the band was playing. Raising them to 16 inches I found that the sound stage opened up a bit and became wider. The speakers seemed to disappear and things also became a bit more cohesive. Instruments now seemed to be physically higher in the space like I was at a small concert and the band was raised just slightly on a platform or stage. The trade off was that there was some congestion in the vocals and I lost some of that punch. I need to play around with them some more and find a way to try heights in between 8 and 16 inches. I also need to try with the sub on to see if some of that punch can be made up for and listen with the tweeters out to see if the sound stage can be widened. Lots of variables to test.

Another nearfield listener! How close do you sit to them? I'm about 62 inches from tweeter to ear lobe, with the tweeters on the inside edges.

One thing that will change "congestion of vocals" is toe-in. One thing you may want to try (works in my room) is to put mirrors at the side wall reflection points, and adjust toe-in so the edges of the MMGs are all you can see in the reflection.

When you propped them up, did you also straighten the panels out (make them fully vertical vice tilted back)? I found on my Gunned MMGs that a *small* amount of tilt back when elevated actually is beneficial, so therefore also recommended as yet another thing to try. I judge the angle right that places an imagenary line perpendicular to the point at the dead center of the panel directly in line with the height of your ears. Doing that with the 8" cinder block height might just be your ticket.

One thing that struck me immediately when I first listened to my nused MMGs is that, depending on where in the room you placed them or listened to them from, they were like many different speakers, each with their own charms. I envy you the journey of figuring out just which "pair" is your preference.

Oh, if you haven't already, search for "Limage/HK" (or Hong Kong) and "Rooze" and "Sideways" planar speaker setups. Those don't sound that great in my room, but then my room is atrocious! In a better room, many folks swear by these configurations.

Why, you might even search for MGbert's FRTs if you're ready to go off the deep end...

MGbert

jlafrenz · « **Reply #34 on:** 4 Mar 2014, 11:24 pm »

Quote from: MGbert on 4 Mar 2014, 10:05 pm

Another nearfield listener! How close do you sit to them? I'm about 62 inches from tweeter to ear lobe, with the tweeters on the inside edges.

One thing that will change "congestion of vocals" is toe-in. One thing you may want to try (works in my room) is to put mirrors at the side wall reflection points, and adjust toe-in so the edges of the MMGs are all you can see in the reflection.

When you propped them up, did you also straighten the panels out (make them fully vertical vice tilted back)? I found on my Gunned MMGs that a *small* amount of tilt back when elevated actually is beneficial, so therefore also recommended as yet another thing to try. I judge the angle right that places an imagenary line perpendicular to the point at the dead center of the panel directly in line with the height of your ears. Doing that with the 8" cinder block height might just be your ticket.

One thing that struck me immediately when I first listened to my nused MMGs is that, depending on where in the room you placed them or listened to them from, they were like many different speakers, each with their own charms. I envy you the journey of figuring out just which "pair" is your preference.

Oh, if you haven't already, search for "Limage/HK" (or Hong Kong) and "Rooze" and "Sideways" planar speaker setups. Those don't sound that great in my room, but then my room is atrocious! In a better room, many folks swear by these configurations.

Why, you might even search for MGbert's FRTs if you're ready to go off the deep end...

MGbert

I am sitting roughly 60" from the tweeters. I do have them toed in currently, but not the the extreme you mention where all you can see in the mirror is the side. I can see minimal of the speaker though. The setup method I used was the Cardas for planar speakers. It seems to work well for me and I have used the traditional method for box speakers. I will look into the methods you mentioned.

The MMG's are still using their original stands and I did flip down the small piece on them to make them more vertical. Hopefully I can listen some more tonight with tweeters out and see what the results are. Once I find that right combo, my plan is to build a base for them.

SteveFord · « **Reply #35 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 12:27 am »

Try getting the center of the speaker at around your ear level from your listening position and see what you think.

jlafrenz · « **Reply #36 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 12:55 am »

Quote from: SteveFord on 5 Mar 2014, 12:27 am

Try getting the center of the speaker at around your ear level from your listening position and see what you think.

I will get the tape measure back out and see there the center of the speaker falls in relation to my ear.

I just had another listening session and discovered that I like the tweeters out. It helped open up the soundstage when the speakers were at the 8 inch height. My observations of more punch at this level still stand from last night as well as the congestion at the 16 inch height. At the 8 inch height I noticed that the MMG's were a bit more forward and aggressive. There are times when I like this, but it could also easily get fatiguing. Perhaps this could be tamed a bit with different tubes in my amp as the ones I have are a bit more forward having rolled them for the speakers I was previously using. I think tubes will be the last thing that I try. My next move is to work with the toe is as suggested to see if that helps the congestion and what it does for the forward sound I was listening to tonight.

rollo · « **Reply #37 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 05:07 pm »

Looking good guys. If you decouple from floor even better.

charles

SteveFord · « **Reply #38 on:** 5 Mar 2014, 09:49 pm »

That looks like hard plastic and sorbothane.
Those little buns or whatever they are I'm using for the base has the hard plastic for sliding around on hardwood floors.
Perhaps I am actually decoupled and don't even know it?

jlafrenz · « **Reply #39 on:** 6 Mar 2014, 02:23 am »

I took a measurement of where my ear height was this evening and it turns out that raising the MMG's up 16 inches puts the center of the speaker within a 1/2 inch of my ear. I found this height to be the most open, but still couldn't get over the congestion in the music. Toeing them in more didn't seem to help much. At this point I would opt for the 8 inch even though it isn't perfect either. I continue to have an edgy sound, but at the same time it feels like they are holding back a bit. They just don't sound like they quite want to open up at this height.