[klao]

Hi all,

I'm wondering which should be better technically:

1.  Longer IC's between phono stage & pre-amp AND shorter IC's between preamp & power amps
2.  Shorter IC's between phono stage & pre-amp AND longer IC's between preamp & power amps

Both my phono and line stages are all tubes (hybrid w/ SS PS) while amps are Bryston's.

Thank you very much.

[Speedskater]

Many phono cartridge to pre-amp combinations are rather sensitive to the cable capacitance. This is a very different circuit sitution than the typical line level interconnect.The phone pre-amp circuit expects a certain amount of cable capacitance that is found in the average 3 foot (1 meter) cable. 

[klao]

Thanks, Speedskater.

A cable designer & manufacturer told me it's quite similar for both setups 1. & 2. above, if the phono preamp, LS preamp, and power amps are all true balance circuit.  However, the designer of those tube phono preamp and tube linestage preamp recommends option 2.

I'm going with that 2nd setup (shorter XLR IC's between phono & LS pre; and longer XLR IC's between LS and power amps).  Now, I'm looking into Bryston's XLR cables; will need 8-9 meters length.

James, are they Van Damme Tour Grade Classic EKE Microphone Cables?  Is it older model?  Normal or Starquad?

http://store.bryston.com/xlr.html


There are only  XKE listed on Van Damme website.    

http://www.van-damme.com/12.html

http://www.van-damme.com/13.html

[James Tanner]

Thanks, Speedskater.

A cable designer & manufacturer told me it's quite similar for both setups 1. & 2. above, if the phono preamp, LS preamp, and power amps are all true balance circuit.  However, the designer of those tube phono preamp and tube linestage preamp recommends option 2.

I'm going with that 2nd setup (shorter XLR IC's between phono & LS pre; and longer XLR IC's between LS and power amps).  Now, I'm looking into Bryston's XLR cables; will need 8-9 meters length.

James, are they Van Damme Tour Grade Classic EKE Microphone Cables?  Is it older model?  Normal or Starquad?

http://store.bryston.com/xlr.html


There are only  XKE listed on Van Damme website.    

http://www.van-damme.com/12.html

http://www.van-damme.com/13.html

Our Balanced cable is the XKE Low Noise Microphone cable and we use our own gold plated XLR connectors.

james

[rollo]

If one is using single ended ICs the shorter the better. #2 is my choice. If using balanced really makes no difference.


charles

[James Tanner]

GETTING WIRED

 
There is not a day that goes by where I do not get asked what cable Bryston recommends with our amplifiers. Hopefully the following will assist you in weeding through some of these complex issues.

Part of the problem is that there is an awful lot of marketing going on and not much science in some cases. The ‘elaborate packaging’ of these interconnects and speaker cables may make you feel warm and fussy but the electrical characteristics are still the primary issue of concern. Simply stated the geometry (where the plus is relative to the minus) of a cable determines the inter-relationship between the measured performance of a specific cable. These measured performance criteria are called the ‘Primary Constants’. They are R–resistance, L–inductance, C–shunt capacitance and G–shunt conductance. You can play around with all types of exotic packaging and add-on appendages you like but ultimately the measured performance (primary constants) tell the tale.

Bryston does not think cables should be 'voiced' to sound a specific way. The best cable is NO cable at all so we contend that the best cable is the cable that changes the signal the least.

COAX INTERCONNECT CABLES:
An analogue Preamp/Amplifier connection is a ‘high impedance interface’ therefore; you are looking for low measured Capacitance.  An interconnect cable acts like a capacitor in the signal path so the better that capacitor the better the interconnect. We use an interconnect wire with (very low capacitance) and the RCA connectors are made for us in Switzerland. The RCA cables ‘make and break ground’ first and last when connecting and disconnecting. This prevents ugly pops and bangs from going through your system with the possible negative results.

XLR INTERCONNECT CABLES:
The XLR cables we use are also very low in capacitance. Actually the XLR cable we are currently using is in fact low noise balanced microphone cable with 100% shield coverage against RF. The advantage of Balanced XLR cables is that they have a noise canceling effect know as ‘common mode noise reduction’. This helps prevent noise and hum from affecting your system. With today’s complexity of  audio and video surround systems this is a big plus, so if you ‘got em-use em’.

DIGITAL CABLES:
With ‘Digital’ interconnects things are a lot different. The wavelengths of digital signals are ‘very short’ (same for FM) so the lengths and terminations are much more critical than with the analogue signals previously discussed. When the wavelength of the signal the cable is used for approaches 1/30th of the length of the cable then transmission line effects start to appear and much more attention has to be paid to the connection and termination.  If not then reflections and cancellation of data is a real possibility. For instance the AES/EBU digital connection on the back of the Bryston SP3 should be used with a cable having an impedance of 110 ohms.

VIDEO CABLES:
Video cables also operate at very high frequencies – typically 5-6 MHz for Composite and S-Video and 8-30 MHz for Component Video depending on the scan rate and resolution. So again understanding the wavelengths of the signals and interfaces involved is important.

SPEAKER CABLES:
The Amplifier/Speaker interface is a ‘low impedance’ connection.  Therefore, in a speaker cable you are looking for low ‘self inductance’ (because inductance rolls off the top end) as opposed to ‘low capacitance’ required in the RCA or XLR analogue interconnect.  For speaker cables we use a stranded 9 gauge linear crystal copper with ‘Heavily Gold plated’ Spade lugs or Expandable Banana plugs specially made for Bryston.

A/C POWER CABLES:
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

There are 4 basic things to remember about these issues:

1. The connection should be of similar metals (preferably gold) and be airtight.  If not airtight it will break down molecularly over time and begin to rectify or produce a diode effect on the signal.

2. With all the RF floating around today the better the ‘Shield’ on the interconnect the less intrusive the RF will be.

3. The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a ‘High Impedance’ connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a ‘Low Impedance’ connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces.

4. Digital and Video cables are much more susceptible to reflection/phase/cancellation problems because of their short wavelengths relative to cable length.

As you can see from the above, no surprise that people hear differences in cables when connected to the variety of equipment in the market today. Given the differences in input and output impedance’s between transistor and tube gear, the lack of understanding of the high impedance and low impedance interfaces, the world of RF, and the digital/video connection issues no wonder we have these differences of opinion.

RECOMMENDATIONS:
I highly recommend keeping the speaker wires as short as possible and utilizing XLR balanced lines if available.  Given the choice of long interconnects and short speaker leads or short interconnects and long speaker leads – choose long interconnects (preferably Balanced) and short speaker leads. With digital and video cables finding out the sending and termination requirements is very important due to the very short wavelengths relative to cable lengths involved.

The cables Bryston recommends represent a scientific approach to these issues and are the cables we use in all our professional studio installations.  All of these cables are available through Bryston’s Website (www.bryston.ca) or our dealers if you wish.

James

[Samurai7595]

GETTING WIRED

 
There is not a day that goes by where I do not get asked what cable Bryston recommends with our amplifiers. Hopefully the following will assist you in weeding through some of these complex issues.

Part of the problem is that there is an awful lot of marketing going on and not much science in some cases. The ‘elaborate packaging’ of these interconnects and speaker cables may make you feel warm and fussy but the electrical characteristics are still the primary issue of concern. Simply stated the geometry (where the plus is relative to the minus) of a cable determines the inter-relationship between the measured performance of a specific cable. These measured performance criteria are called the ‘Primary Constants’. They are R–resistance, L–inductance, C–shunt capacitance and G–shunt conductance. You can play around with all types of exotic packaging and add-on appendages you like but ultimately the measured performance (primary constants) tell the tale.

Bryston does not think cables should be 'voiced' to sound a specific way. The best cable is NO cable at all so we contend that the best cable is the cable that changes the signal the least.

COAX INTERCONNECT CABLES:
An analogue Preamp/Amplifier connection is a ‘high impedance interface’ therefore; you are looking for low measured Capacitance.  An interconnect cable acts like a capacitor in the signal path so the better that capacitor the better the interconnect. We use an interconnect wire with (very low capacitance) and the RCA connectors are made for us in Switzerland. The RCA cables ‘make and break ground’ first and last when connecting and disconnecting. This prevents ugly pops and bangs from going through your system with the possible negative results.

XLR INTERCONNECT CABLES:
The XLR cables we use are also very low in capacitance. Actually the XLR cable we are currently using is in fact low noise balanced microphone cable with 100% shield coverage against RF. The advantage of Balanced XLR cables is that they have a noise canceling effect know as ‘common mode noise reduction’. This helps prevent noise and hum from affecting your system. With today’s complexity of  audio and video surround systems this is a big plus, so if you ‘got em-use em’.

DIGITAL CABLES:
With ‘Digital’ interconnects things are a lot different. The wavelengths of digital signals are ‘very short’ (same for FM) so the lengths and terminations are much more critical than with the analogue signals previously discussed. When the wavelength of the signal the cable is used for approaches 1/30th of the length of the cable then transmission line effects start to appear and much more attention has to be paid to the connection and termination.  If not then reflections and cancellation of data is a real possibility. For instance the AES/EBU digital connection on the back of the Bryston SP3 should be used with a cable having an impedance of 110 ohms.

VIDEO CABLES:
Video cables also operate at very high frequencies – typically 5-6 MHz for Composite and S-Video and 8-30 MHz for Component Video depending on the scan rate and resolution. So again understanding the wavelengths of the signals and interfaces involved is important.

SPEAKER CABLES:
The Amplifier/Speaker interface is a ‘low impedance’ connection.  Therefore, in a speaker cable you are looking for low ‘self inductance’ (because inductance rolls off the top end) as opposed to ‘low capacitance’ required in the RCA or XLR analogue interconnect.  For speaker cables we use a stranded 9 gauge linear crystal copper with ‘Heavily Gold plated’ Spade lugs or Expandable Banana plugs specially made for Bryston.

A/C POWER CABLES:
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

There are 4 basic things to remember about these issues:

1. The connection should be of similar metals (preferably gold) and be airtight.  If not airtight it will break down molecularly over time and begin to rectify or produce a diode effect on the signal.

2. With all the RF floating around today the better the ‘Shield’ on the interconnect the less intrusive the RF will be.

3. The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a ‘High Impedance’ connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a ‘Low Impedance’ connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces.

4. Digital and Video cables are much more susceptible to reflection/phase/cancellation problems because of their short wavelengths relative to cable length.

As you can see from the above, no surprise that people hear differences in cables when connected to the variety of equipment in the market today. Given the differences in input and output impedance’s between transistor and tube gear, the lack of understanding of the high impedance and low impedance interfaces, the world of RF, and the digital/video connection issues no wonder we have these differences of opinion.

RECOMMENDATIONS:
I highly recommend keeping the speaker wires as short as possible and utilizing XLR balanced lines if available.  Given the choice of long interconnects and short speaker leads or short interconnects and long speaker leads – choose long interconnects (preferably Balanced) and short speaker leads. With digital and video cables finding out the sending and termination requirements is very important due to the very short wavelengths relative to cable lengths involved.

The cables Bryston recommends represent a scientific approach to these issues and are the cables we use in all our professional studio installations.  All of these cables are available through Bryston’s Website (www.bryston.ca) or our dealers if you wish.

James

James,

When comparing the regular Bryston speaker cable to the bi-wire version, are you using the same cable but "splitting it" into 4 instead of 2 at the speaker-end or are you using more cabling (thicker cable)?

[James Tanner]

Yes we are splitting it unless you want two separate cables wrapped with a mesh cover.   Separate cable is 9 gauge a split cable equals 12 gauge

james

[Samurai7595]

Yes we are splitting it unless you want two separate cables wrapped with a mesh cover.   Separate cable is 9 gauge a split cable equals 12 gauge

james

James,

The two separate cables wrapped in a mesh is still for bi-wire and not bi-amp, correct?  Can this be ordered online via the Bryston store in a 12-foot length with banana plugs at both ends?

[James Tanner]

James,

The two separate cables wrapped in a mesh is still for bi-wire and not bi-amp, correct?  Can this be ordered online via the Bryston store in a 12-foot length with banana plugs at both ends?

Hi,

Yes still bi-wire but now you have 2 separate 4 wire weaved cables per side.  I would call Melissa at Bryston and order through her to make sure you get exactly what you are looking for.

james


   


Single wire - has 4 weaved cables terminated in Banana or Spade



 Bi-Wire one end

[Samurai7595]

Hi,

Yes still bi-wire but now you have 2 separate 4 wire weaved cables per side.  I would call Melissa at Bryston and order through her to make sure you get exactly what you are looking for.

james


   


Single wire - has 4 weaved cables terminated in Banana or Spade



 Bi-Wire one end

Thanks for the info & pics James!

By the way, has Bryston ever done any cable comparisons between the Bryston cables and other manufacture's cables?

For example, how would these Bryston speaker cables compare to speaker cables from Siltech, Cardas, Chord, Transparent, BIS, etc. and what improvements (if any) can be expected with speaker cables at roughly 3x-5x the price of Bryston?
 

[James Tanner]

Thanks for the info & pics James!

By the way, has Bryston ever done any cable comparisons between the Bryston cables and other manufacture's cables?

For example, how would these Bryston speaker cables compare to speaker cables from Siltech, Cardas, Chord, Transparent, BIS, etc. and what improvements (if any) can be expected with speaker cables at roughly 3x-5x the price of Bryston?

Hi Samurai

Yes I get cables given to me to try all the time - right now I have the Nordost Red Dawn and am playing with them currently.  The Bryston cables are designed to pass all 'real' and 'imaginary' audio signals !

james

[Samurai7595]

Hi Samurai

Yes I get cables given to me to try all the time - right now I have the Nordost Red Dawn and am playing with them currently.  The Bryston cables are designed to pass all 'real' and 'imaginary' audio signals !

james

Understood!