Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 5739 times.

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
I can think of no reason this won't work but please burst my bubble if necessary. 

Suppose we have a stereo source with balanced XLR outputs and unbalanced 7.1 line preamp (RCA in/out).  The latter is high resolution, apparently with switched ladder attenuator on analog chip, having tighter overall tolerance and tighter channel level tolerance than any discreet circuit/mechanical switch (Shalco) except for possibly cost no object.   

Can four channels of the the above described preamp function as balanced stereo line preamp?
 
Source Left XLR > line preamp chs 1 and 2
Source Right XLR > line preamp chs 3 and 4

I realize the source must be balanced, i.e. the preamp can not convert an unbalanced input to balanced output.  Also it requires special IC termination or adapters, XLR to dual RCA. 


Davey

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1481
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #1 on: 13 Jul 2013, 10:34 pm »
You'd have a polarity inversion between channels 1 and 2 (and 3 and 4.)  You'd need to "fix" that somewhere else....maybe by reversing the speaker leads downstream on channels 2 and 4.

I don't see any point to this configuration.  If you want feed more than two preamp channels just "Y" your source outputs.

Dave.

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #2 on: 13 Jul 2013, 11:04 pm »
You'd have a polarity inversion between channels 1 and 2 (and 3 and 4.)  You'd need to "fix" that somewhere else....maybe by reversing the speaker leads downstream on channels 2 and 4.

I don't see any point to this configuration.  If you want feed more than two preamp channels just "Y" your source outputs.

Dave.

One of us is confused, very possibly myself!  If so, please correct me.  A balanced signal comprises two opposed polarities by design to cancel noise.  There is no need to fix or correct anything in the speakers.

The sum total purpose of this exercise is to employ four unbalanced line channels to function as two (stereo) balanced line channels between a balanced source and balanced amps.   

I'll be more specific about the connection:

Source output Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 2 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 1
Source output Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 3 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 2

Source output Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 2 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 3
Source output Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 3 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 4

Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 1 > Power amp input Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 2
Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 2 > Power amp input Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 3

Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 3 > Power amp input Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 2
Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 4 > Power amp input Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 3

In effect the above application comprises the exact architecture within every fully balanced stereo line preamp: two fully balanced channels comprise sum total four active line stages; each channel shares a zero voltage reference.  This is why I see no reason it would not work, unless I'm missing something possibly very obvious.     




 
« Last Edit: 14 Jul 2013, 12:12 am by James Romeyn »

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2733
  • Kevin
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #3 on: 13 Jul 2013, 11:15 pm »
The problem is that an XLR connector only has an audio signal between pins #2 & #3.  The pin #1 is only connected to the chassis and is not part of the balanced audio circuit.

Also more than a few balanced output circuits have no active components connected to one of the pins. (only resistors and capacitors)

See in the Doug Self "Balanced Line Technology" paper the section on Impedance Balancing.

http://douglas-self.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm

Davey

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1481
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #4 on: 13 Jul 2013, 11:45 pm »
Even though pin 1 is not really part of the audio signal, it's still usually useable to create an unbalanced output from a balanced output.

But, good point regarding many balanced audio outputs not having signal on the (-) output.  (I had a brain fart.)

Cheers,

Dave.

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #5 on: 13 Jul 2013, 11:49 pm »
The problem is that an XLR connector only has an audio signal between pins #2 & #3.  The pin #1 is only connected to the chassis and is not part of the balanced audio circuit.

Also more than a few balanced output circuits have no active components connected to one of the pins. (only resistors and capacitors)

See in the Doug Self "Balanced Line Technology" paper the section on Impedance Balancing.

http://douglas-self.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm

It would help if, rather than introduce variables that may or may not address the question, if someone stated in simple terms the specific fault in the following text:

Source output Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 2 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 1
Source output Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 3 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 2

Source output Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 2 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 3
Source output Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 3 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 4

Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 1 > Power amp input Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 2
Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 2 > Power amp input Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 3

Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 3 > Power amp input Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 2
Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 4 > Power amp input Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 3

The only potential problem I can imagine is pin 1 sharing 0 voltage reference between two RCA/two unbalanced channels.  But such is the case for every Y connector so I don't see any problems doing it for two identical but inverted signals with shared 0 voltage reference.  Does this not describe the exact architecture of every fully balanced circuit?   



James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #6 on: 13 Jul 2013, 11:53 pm »
Even though pin 1 is not really part of the audio signal, it's still usually useable to create an unbalanced output from a balanced output.

But, good point regarding many balanced audio outputs not having signal on the (-) output.  (I had a brain fart.)

Cheers,

Dave.

I currently employ, and have for years, XLR balanced output to a selector switch to choose either positive or inverted polarity to an unbalanced input.

By definition, an XLR with no inverted signal on pin 3 is an "unbalanced" XLR and not "balanced."  IOW, the XLR connector does not define a balanced circuit, it only denotes a type of connector.  IOW there is no such thing as a "balanced" output or "balanced" circuit on an XLR with no inverted signal on pin 3.

Hope that helps.   

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #7 on: 14 Jul 2013, 12:06 am »
The problem is that an XLR connector only has an audio signal between pins #2 & #3.  The pin #1 is only connected to the chassis and is not part of the balanced audio circuit.

Unless I miss something one is in error, either above of this schematic:



Quote
Also more than a few balanced output circuits have no active components connected to one of the pins. (only resistors and capacitors)

See in the Doug Self "Balanced Line Technology" paper the section on Impedance Balancing.

http://douglas-self.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm


See the diagram above for signal descriptions for pin assignments.  Whatever precedes the pins, the diagram defines the signal present at the pins. 

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2733
  • Kevin
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #8 on: 14 Jul 2013, 12:28 am »
Unless I miss something one is in error, either above of this schematic: 

You didn't miss anything, Neil Muncy first wrote about the problem some 20 years ago.  It took 10 years to get the AES to write a standard (AES 48).  Now 20 years later, products are still being incorrectly manufactured!  Why? well some mfg's are lazy but more because it's a lot cheaper to do it incorrectly.  Mounting the XLR jacks on the printed circuit board saves lots of money over mounting the jacks on the chassis.

See:

'Pin 1 Revisited' Neil Muncy called our attention to the Pin 1 problem.
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/Pin_1_Revisited.pdf

'Pin 1 Revisited -- Part 2'
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/Pin_1_Revisited_Part_2.pdf

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #9 on: 14 Jul 2013, 12:33 am »
I generally enjoy reading about audio, but for the moment: Will the following work or not?  If no, why?  Volume controls for all four preamp channels are ganged. 

Source output Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 2 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 1
Source output Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 3 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 2

Source output Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 2 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 3
Source output Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 3 > Preamp input unbalanced RCA ch 4

Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 1 > Power amp input Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 2
Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 2 > Power amp input Left balanced XLR pins 1 and 3

Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 3 > Power amp input Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 2
Preamp output unbalanced RCA ch 4 > Power amp input Right balanced XLR pins 1 and 3

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2733
  • Kevin
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #10 on: 14 Jul 2013, 12:47 am »
Will it work and how well will it work?
It depends!  There are several output stage configurations and there are several input stage configurations.  Some combinations will work, some combinations will sort of work and some combination won't.

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2733
  • Kevin
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #11 on: 14 Jul 2013, 01:00 am »
From the above linked Doug Self paper:

6: INPUT/OUTPUT COMBINATIONS Taking five kinds of output (the rare case of floating output transformers being excluded) and the two kinds of input amplifier, there are 10 possible combinations of connection. The discussion below assumes output Rs is 100 Ohms, and the differential input amplifier resistors R are all 10k, as in Fig 9.

Case 1) Unbalanced output TO unbalanced input. The basic connection. There is no rejection of ground noise (CMRR=unity) or electrostatic crosstalk; in the latter case the 1mA notional crosstalk signal yields a -20 dBv signal as the impedance to ground is very nearly 100 Ohms.

Case 2) Unbalanced output TO balanced input.
Assuming the output ground is connected to the cold line input, then in theory there is complete cancellation of ground voltages- unless the output has a series output resistor to buffer it from cable capacitance, (which is almost always the case) for this will unbalance the line. If the output resistance is 100 Ohms, and the cold line is simply grounded as in Fig 4a, then Rs degrades the CMRR to -46 dB even if the balanced input has exactly matched resistors.
The impedances on each line will be different, but not due to the asymmetrical input impedances of a simple differential amplifier; the hot line impedance is dominated by the output resistance Rs on the hot terminal (100 Ohms) and the cold line impedance is zero as it is grounded at the output end. The rejection of capacitive crosstalk therefore depends on the unbalanced output impedance, and will be no better than for an unbalanced input, as at 1); the main benefit of this connection is ground noise rejection, which solves the most common system problem.

 Case 3) Impedance-balance output TO unbalanced input.
There is nothing to connect the output cold terminal to at the input end, and so this is the same as the ordinary unbalanced connection at 1) above.

Case 4) Impedance-balance output TO balanced input.
In theory there is complete cancellation of both capacitive crosstalk and CM ground voltages, as the line impedances are now exactly equal.
The table below shows the improvement that impedance- balancing offers over a conventional unbalanced output, when driving a balanced input with exactly matched resistors.

Capacitive 1mA CMRR Conventional -20 dBv -46 dB Impedance-bal 99R -60 dBv -101dB Impedance-bal 100R Infinite -85 dB Impedance-bal 101R -60 dBv -79 dB

The effect of tolerances in the impedance-balance resistor are also shown; the rejection of capacitive crosstalk degrades as soon as the value moves away from the theoretical 100 Ohms, but the CMRR actually has its point of perfect cancellation slightly displaced to about 98.5 Ohms, due to second-order effects. This is of no consequence in practice.

Case 5) Ground-cancelling output TO unbalanced input.
There is complete cancellation of ground voltages, assuming the ground-cancel output has an accurate unity gain between its cold and hot terminals. (Which is a matter for the manufacturer) This is a very efficient and cost-effective method of interconnection for all levels of equipment, but tends to be more common at the budget end of the market.

Case 6) Ground-cancelling output TO balanced input.
This combination needs a little thought. At first there appears to be a danger that the ground-noise voltage might be subtracted twice, which will of course be equivalent to putting it back in in anti-phase, gaining us nothing. In fact this is not the case, though the cancellation accuracy is compromised compared with the impedance-balanced case; the CM rejection will not exceed 46 dB,even with perfect resistor matching throughout. Capacitive crosstalk is no better than for the "Unbalanced output TO balanced input" ie approx -21 dB, which means virtually no rejection; however this is rarely a problem in practice.

Case 7) Balanced output TO unbalanced input.
This is not a balanced interconnection. There is nowhere to connect the balanced cold output to; it must be left open- circuit, its signal unused, so there is a 6dB loss of headroom in the link. The unbalanced input means the connection is unbalanced, and so there is no noise rejection.

Case 8) Balanced output TO balanced input.
A standard balanced system, that should give good rejection of ground noise and electrostatic crosstalk.

Case 9) Quasi-floating output TO unbalanced input.
Since the input is unbalanced, it is necessary to ground the cold side of the quasi-floating output. If this is done at the remote (input) end then the ground voltage drop is transferred to the hot output by the quasi-floating action, and the ground noise is cancelled in much the same way as a ground-canceling output.
However, in some cases this ground connection must be local, ie at the output end of the cable, if doing it at the remote (input) end causes HF instability in the quasi-floating output stage. This may happen with very long cables. Such local grounding rules out rejection of ground noise because there is no sensing of the ground voltage drop.
Perhaps the major disadvantage of quasi-floating outputs is the confusion they can cause. Even experienced engineers are liable to mistake them for balanced outputs, and so leave the cold terminal unconnected. This is not a good idea. Even if there are no problems with pickup of external interference on the unterminated cold output, this will cause a serious increase in internal noise. I believe it should be standard practice for such outputs to clearly marked as what they are.

Case 10) Quasi-floating output TO balanced input.
A standard balanced system, that should give good rejection of ground noise and electrostatic crosstalk.
The hot and cold output impedances are equal, and dominate the line impedance, so even if the line input impedances are unbalanced, there should also be good rejection of electrostatic crosstalk.

Davey

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1481
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #12 on: 14 Jul 2013, 01:42 am »
By definition, an XLR with no inverted signal on pin 3 is an "unbalanced" XLR and not "balanced."  IOW, the XLR connector does not define a balanced circuit, it only denotes a type of connector.  IOW there is no such thing as a "balanced" output or "balanced" circuit on an XLR with no inverted signal on pin 3.

Hope that helps.   

No, that doesn't help.  I'm afraid it's all incorrect.  :)  Balanced lines have nothing to do with signal levels or the (possible) absence thereof.  It's all about the impedance levels.
This is all well explained in the Self text linked by Speedskater and by many other pro-audio references.

Cheers,

Dave.

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #13 on: 14 Jul 2013, 06:37 am »
No, that doesn't help.  I'm afraid it's all incorrect.  :)  Balanced lines have nothing to do with signal levels or the (possible) absence thereof.  It's all about the impedance levels.
This is all well explained in the Self text linked by Speedskater and by many other pro-audio references.

Cheers,

Dave.

In this thread I never mentioned the word "level" so I have no idea why you mentioned the word "level" and I don't know what it has to do with this thread.  Analog signals have levels but I don't know what that has to do with my question. 

It is possible to employ the phrase "balanced line level" separate from its impedance characteristics and that is my usage throughout this thread.  Analog music signals exist and can be discussed separate from the impedance characteristics of that signal.   

Could you post a diagram of pin assignments for a so-called "balanced" XLR 3-pin connector with no signal on pin 3?  If I understand you correctly you believe such exists, while I don't. 

The following should be clear enough (I hope).  Every time I typed "balanced output" I meant exactly the same thing Self meant when he typed:

Quote
...4) Balanced output. See Fig 5b...

Self "Fig 5b:"



Every time I typed "balanced" I meant no more and no less than what Self meant above.

So again and hopefully the final time: If my proposed text will not function perfectly, exactly why? 
 

Davey

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1481
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #14 on: 14 Jul 2013, 12:50 pm »
Could you post a diagram of pin assignments for a so-called "balanced" XLR 3-pin connector with no signal on pin 3?  If I understand you correctly you believe such exists, while I don't.

Section 2.4.  (You should read the whole white paper.)
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf

Speedskater has already answered your query.  You configuration may work, or it may not......depending upon whether signal is present on your (-) polarity outputs.  Even if it is, you'll still have a polarity reversal which you'll have to "correct" with a speaker wire reversal....or equivalent.  And there may be other issues as well.

Cheers,

Dave.

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2733
  • Kevin
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #15 on: 14 Jul 2013, 01:37 pm »
Old ideas die slowly.  Some of the papers that are still on the Jensen, Rane & Doug Self web-sites still show the old incorrect hook-up.

Maybe you could use a audio distribution amplifier.

http://audio-video-supply.markertek.com/search?w=audio+distribution+amplifier+xlr

poseidonsvoice

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4027
  • Science is not a democracy - Earl Geddes
    • 2 channel/7 channel setup
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #16 on: 14 Jul 2013, 02:29 pm »
Not trying to obfuscate the issue -a thorough read of section 3 is recommended. I agree with Speedskater.  (You can also scroll down to Chapter 5 for the overall summary):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-articles/163575-audio-component-grounding-interconnection.html

Best,

Anand.

Speedskater

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2733
  • Kevin
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #17 on: 14 Jul 2013, 03:37 pm »
Some time ago Mike Rivers wrote an informative magazine article on balanced circuits, I think that this paper sums up the old article.

'Balanced and Unbalanced Connections'
Mike Rivers

http://mikeriversaudio.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/balanced-unbalanced_revised.pdf

Other good Mike Rivers papers:

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com/technical-articles/

randytsuch

Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #18 on: 14 Jul 2013, 04:21 pm »
So I don't see a problem with the basic premise here.

A balanced signal is comprised of 2 signals (positive and negative) and a ground reference.

A standard "RCA" type jack is 1 signal, positive with a ground reference.

I don't see a reason why using a 4 channel preamp wouldn't work, so in your figure.

As long as the source is balanced, and the amp is balanced, you are still treating the signal as balanced. 

IMHO, the key to true balanced is that the source really creates a balanced signal, that it is combined correctly at the end (amp), and that you maintain the 4 signal paths throughout.

The 4 channel preamp will maintain the signal path as 4 separate channels.  The preamp doesn't know, and doesn't care that you are really feeding it 2 balanced channels, it should just take 4 inputs, and generate 4 outputs.

Since this is the lab, I figure you would make custom IC's, that take a balanced signal and then separate into 2 RCA's.  This would both feed the preamp, and you would have the reverse coming out of the preamp, 2 RCA's to one balanced jack.  And if you are making your own IC's, you could make sure they match the XLR pinouts of the equipment you are using, but I can't believe it's not standard.

I would make sure the source is truly balanced, I have seen sources create a balanced signal by taking a signal ended signal and inverting it.


Randy

James Romeyn

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3329
  • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
    • James Romeyn Music and Audio, LLC
Re: Two unbalanced line channels = one balanced channel?
« Reply #19 on: 14 Jul 2013, 11:52 pm »
Section 2.4.  (You should read the whole white paper.)
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf

Speedskater has already answered your query.  You configuration may work, or it may not......depending upon whether signal is present on your (-) polarity outputs.


Above I posted a too large (smaller n/a) diagram depicting the proposed application.  Your word above "depending" appears to ignore the simple presence in the image of the inverted signal marked "cold" which the man you mention (Self) who posted the image describes the same as I do.  So there is no "depending" because it's there in the image.   


Quote
Even if it is, you'll still have a polarity reversal which you'll have to "correct" with a speaker wire reversal....or equivalent.  And there may be other issues as well.

Again, per Self's diagram above and my text, a positive going signal at both source output channels equals a positive going signal at both amp input channels.  Your statement above could only be accurate if the above sentence was wrong.  I'm actually quite curious if you'd point to the exact location in the proposed application where one or both speakers require polarity inversion. 

There is no industry standard for absolute polarity.  (Industry standard would mean a positive going waveform of live music = positive going waveform in the software whatever that may be.)  IOW, the difference is generally moot regarding system polarity.  I have an absolute polarity switch and depending on the source, performance improves in one position or the other.  I can fairly conclusively prove that even mic polarity is sometimes individually inverted on certain recordings (compared to other mics, "Love Can Build A Bridge" by the Judds...Nayomi Judd and Winona's therapist gave me a mini tour of Nayomi's luxury buss years ago on Treasure Island).  It's ridiculously easy to invert one mic polarity when all are balanced, as Self mentions.  Also, dubbing in the digital domain often or always inverts absolute polarity. 

Generally the industry standard for absolute polarity is chaos.   

The primary reason to note polarity is matching one speaker to another, but absolute polarity is of little help by itself.  I say little because I agree with George Louis who states (IIRC) that it appears that about 60% of CDs are in correct absolute polarity (sound best played back on a system with no inverting component), rather than being a perfect random of 50% as is the case with vinyl  But with computer based systems I can only presume it's far closer to 50/50 because, again, digital dubs do not control for polarity (meaning again, no standard). 

Mutli way speakers with inconsistent driver polarity are less sensitive (as are some listeners) to absolute polarity.  I sold a pair of killer (and gorgeous solid 60mm thick Ovangkol tone wood) French ASA Pro Monitors after I copied and improved them and made six clones.  The buyer had a good system and I knew he'd love them, but he and his wife weren't fawning over them as expected.  I had to practically beg him to simply invert both polarities, because at first he (a PhD IIRC) could not and did not believe that it could and would fix the problem.  Finally out of desperation he inverted both speaker polarities and lived happily ever after.  To this day he can not believe how or why it could make a difference, yet his ears tell him it was a night and day improvement.  Honestly, the conversations with him after the fact was like I pulled some type of spell or used magic.  All I can figure is one component in his system inverts and his favorite music he was using for demo was playing in the wrong (inverted) polarity.     

It's really just wrong there is no industry standard for absolute polarity. 

Listen to Chesky's test CD (1st IIRC) with two music samples, correct vs. inverted polarity.

My TRL modded Sony player inverts analog polarity for Red Book.  I finally asked Paul Weitzel of TRL whether or not the stereo SACD output is inverted and he did not know (again, no industry standard).  I bet no one at Sony even knows.  I hope to remember to ask Ray Kimber next time I see him if his SACDs invert or not, which I could then use as a reference to judge any particular SACD player's polarity.  If anyone in the world would know, Ray would.