[James Romeyn]

First: for high resolution system, how much if at all better overall is TrueHD vs. DD/DTS?  Suppose there are seven speakers, but comparing DD to TrueHD, the two rear surround speakers are mono, listener sits about 11' from 16.5' wide rear wall, two rear surrounds are at Dolby-specified spacing and height (several inches above ear level).

Listening to Royal Philharmonic Orchestra recorded in Abbey Road or Air Studios in London in "lowly" DD/DTS (The Hobbit, for instance...soundstage 50' deep and similar width), it's extremely difficult for me to imagine TrueHD would sound better.  It's already better than just about any music recordings I've ever heard.   

Did/does anyone make a simple black box as follows:

HDMI input
DD and TrueHD processing (DTS and MasterHD desired but not mandatory)
7.1 unbalanced analog output
HDMI output
Smaller is better

A receiver is fine except every other feature is unused, unwanted, and of no interest.   

If I did upgrade to discreet 7.1 TrueHD, in the above system, how audible is the difference changing from mono to discreet rear channels? 

[Russtafarian]

I'm not sure you'll find such a box.  I'm guessing the licensing fees for using all the new DD & DTS decoder variants guarantees that only the mass producers of home theater components can use them.

Another option is a BluRay player like the Oppo BDP-103 that will decode all the new formats AND has analog outputs.  Most new BD players don't have analog outputs, just HDMI and digital. 

Russ

[John Casler]

There are or will be a couple units like that, except the one has multiple HDMI inputs.

What type of amps will you be using?

[JRace]

Oppo BDP-105

Hdmi inputs and outputs
Full analog outpus
Dgital and usb audio inputs
Volume control

Oh and it even plays discs!

[James Romeyn]

There are or will be a couple units like that, except the one has multiple HDMI inputs.

What type of amps will you be using?

Well, I mentioned one HDMI only because I don't need more, but multiple is fine.

7.1 analog outputs connect as follows: LCR and Sub feed HT bypass of Trinaural Processor, four surrounds feed a line preamp with IIRC 20k Ohm input impedance.

[James Romeyn]

I'm not sure you'll find such a box.  I'm guessing the licensing fees for using all the new DD & DTS decoder variants guarantees that only the mass producers of home theater components can use them.

Another option is a BluRay player like the Oppo BDP-103 that will decode all the new formats AND has analog outputs.  Most new BD players don't have analog outputs, just HDMI and digital. 

Russ

Thanks for suggesting the Oppo...that seems elegant solution wise because there's no increase in chassis and one less IC (Bluray output HDMI to box or receiver). 

What's the lowest cost Oppo model (current or discontinued) with TrueHD and 7.1 analog outputs? 

Nobody wanted to take a stab at my question how much better is TrueHD vs. DD?  Why don't one of you quickly switch between the two formats on a disc with killer sound track like the aforementioned "Hobbit?"

A friend of mine has Oppo's recent best model.  Maybe next time I visit I'll borrow it and compare the two formats myself at home.   

[jarcher]

TruHD is definitely better than DD, as is DTS-HD Master Audio vs DTS.  DTS = 1.5mbps / DTS-HD MA = up to +24mbps. DD TruHD = up to 18mbps.

These are lossless & can do up to 96 kHz/24bit resolution up to 7.1 channels (24 / 192 over 5.1 channels).   I seem to see more blu ray titles on DTS-HD MA than DD TruHD.  Not to many at the full 7.1 channels - most @ 5.1.  I use the + PLIIZ MV option to get the full 7 channels w/ 5.1 titles. 

When I hear DD over the cable box, broadcast, and Netflix, it definitely sounds more compressed / shrill to me : particularly over a good home theater sound system.  Netflix streaming at least is doing many titles w/ Dolby Digital Plus, which at up to 6mbps bridges the gap between DD and TruHD and sounds pretty decent.  Movie / video / etc soundtracks are often to shrill as it is : with these new lossless hi-rez formats you're really getting as close as possible to the master track recordings. You will be even more amazed how good LOTR can sound in hi-rez lossless sound!

So after all that technical gobbedly gook : yes, getting something w/ DTS-HD MA and DD TRU HD is worth it.  Some people have suggested Oppo w/ analog out.  I'd say just go with a decent receiver, like something from Marantz, that can serve as processor + preamp and, almost equally important, has automated room correction software (i.e. Audessy / etc).  Even as purist as I am about 2 channel sound, Audessy is worthwhile for home theater.  Really.  I almost always like the way blu rays etc sound with Audessy on than off.  E.g. it helps better match the center channel w/ the main channels. 

If you also wanted / needed a good DAC / CD player, I'd say get the Oppo 105 if you can afford it.  But if its HT you're after, I think you need both the processing + automated room correction, and you're only going to get that from a HT processor or receiver. These things can get complicated enough, so best to have it all in one box.  You'll eventually end up using more of the extra feature than you might imagine (e.g. internet radio / media streaming from your computer / airplay from ipod / ipad / etc).

You don't have to spend a lot of money either.  Lately I've been recommending the Marantz SR5007 that Accessories For Less sells refurbed for $500. 

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5007/MARANTZ-SR5007-100w-x7-NetworkingTheater-Receiver-w/AirPlay-3D-4K/1.html

There are other options for less, but few also have 7.1. pre amp analog outputs for external amps, which is a must for me.  And Marantz is probably one of the more "musical" of the mass market receivers.  The AV7005 & AV8801 are what two reviewers from the "lofty" stereophile use for both HT + 2 channel : and owning both the AV7005 & the SR5005 (predecessor to the recommended SR5007), I can tell you there's not a hugh sound quality difference between the two.

Best of luck!

[mcgsxr]

I am only using 5.1 in my HT, but the Blu-rays I have that use TrueHD are superior to the DVD versions with standard DD.  Way better dynamics and sound, even with my modest Pioneer/Paradigm setup.

[Russtafarian]

What's the lowest cost Oppo model (current or discontinued) with TrueHD and 7.1 analog outputs? 

The current BDP-103 is $499

http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/

It's quite the swiss army knife unit with remote volume control, HDMI inputs, network player, Netflix/Vudu, Ipad control app, DSD from attached storage, etc.  More importantly, it sounds really good stock and can be improved with some simple mods (if you're into that).

The HDMI input is a game-changing feature.  Connecting a PC or Mac to the 103 via HDMI gives you a great sounding stereo and multi-channel music server if you're into that kind of thing.  You can rip your BD TrueHD and DTS-HD audio tracks to 24/96 multi-channel FLAC files and play them back from your computer.

The discontinued BDP-93 and BDP-83 also have TrueHD and analog outputs and will work if you just want disc playback and don't want the new features on the 103.

Russ

[James Romeyn]

Is it possible, playing a Bluray disc with TrueHD or MasterHD, to simply switch back and forth (via processor/receiver remote) to immediately compare DD vs. TrueHD/MasterHD? 

This is the only comparison that matters.  Comparing two different discs (DVD vs. Bluray) introduces potential variable audio quality on the discs beyond what may or may not be revealed in the above described test. 

I've heard plenty of HT's with professionally assembled $100k sound systems with state of the art DSP and have sum total zero interest.  None even comes close to my current sound decoding DD.  The Hobbit Bluray was possibly the most realistic music reproduction I've ever heard, in lowly DD.

As mentioned earlier, I'm just going to have to borrow my friend's Oppo and find out myself.  Will the Oppo allow me to switch between DD vs. TrueHD? 

[James Romeyn]

...The discontinued BDP-93 and BDP-83 also have TrueHD and analog outputs and will work if you just want disc playback..

Russ

Russ,
Are the 93 and 83 WiFi capable...or at least do they have Ethernet input? 

I would have thought there were several black boxes as described in the OP, allowing users to upgrade when HDMI and TrueHD first appeared. 

[ted_b]

James,
I believe most will not, or cannot, discern the differences in these newer lossless surround formats because they never improved their 5.1 or 7.1 setups from the days of DD.  In those days users were told to throw any ole' surrounds back there (let alone AVR-based amplification) because all they needed to address were foley effects and very low bandwidth ambiance signals.  Those days are gone.  All channels (with either the lossless BD codecs or linear PCM) are now full range!  I can pick out a DD track vs TrueHD in 5 seconds.  But then I have full range identical speakers as my high rez surrounds.  Heck even with my separate fairly full range Alon Centris movie surrounds I can pick out lossy surround info.  Yeah, core DTS (and DTS24/96, nothing more than lossy core and a faux extention) are good, but nothing comapred to the full range growls coming out of movie surround tracks these days.

[Russtafarian]

Are the 93 and 83 WiFi capable...or at least do they have Ethernet input? 

Yes, but I haven't used those players so I don't know what ethernet/wifi functionality they have or how well it works. 

Russ

[James Romeyn]

James,
I believe most will not, or cannot, discern the differences in these newer lossless surround formats because they never improved their 5.1 or 7.1 setups from the days of DD.  In those days users were told to throw any ole' surrounds back there (let alone AVR-based amplification) because all they needed to address were foley effects and very low bandwidth ambiance signals.  Those days are gone.  All channels (with either the lossless BD codecs or linear PCM) are now full range!  I can pick out a DD track vs TrueHD in 5 seconds.  But then I have full range identical speakers as my high rez surrounds.  Heck even with my separate fairly full range Alon Centris movie surrounds I can pick out lossy surround info.  Yeah, core DTS (and DTS24/96, nothing more than lossy core and a faux extention) are good, but nothing comapred to the full range growls coming out of movie surround tracks these days.

Ted,
I very much appreciate your input and all the other posts too.

Much of this question (DD vs. TrueHD) is user-dependent as much as system-dependent.  I like HT "effects" but musical performance is the highest priority.  Here's a Wiki link to The Hobbit soundtrack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_The_Hobbit_film_series  I can hardly describe how great, how awesome, how startlingly realistic was The Royal Philharmonic recorded at Abbey Road Studios in London, decoded in lowly DD.  The smoothness, the detail, the stage, and imaging was, as I mentioned, possibly better than any music playback I've heard, approaching much of the effects of Ray Kimber's proprietary 4.0 IsoMike recordings played back on eight Soundlab stats (two per corner) and oodles of Pass Class A amps.  The stage was incredible in its expanse and panoramic vista.  Percussion effects like triangles floated in the air, presenting a clear image of a human being striking metal against metal, rear most in the stage with lateral location just L of the mid point between L and C Ch. 

This is what got me wondering, "Could TrueHD possibly be better than this?"  The resolution is mathematically higher, so I suppose it should sound better. 

I liked The Hobbit more than the LOTR movies.   

[jarcher]

James :

If you want to do a quick A/B, some blu ray movies in the "setup" on the disc have multiple format options : i.e. DD TruHD or DTS-MA HD and DD or standard DTS options.  This is particularly true for the secondary audio options, such as for other languages, audio for the visually impaired, and even "clean" audio sound tracks with expletives removed. This will allow you to do a quick comparison between the two with the same gear.

I just put on "Avatar" and compared the DTS-HD MA soundtrack vs the DD (on the "clean / family" soundtrack).  The DD was pretty well done, as you'd expect for Cameron's perfectionism.  But the DTS-HD MA was clearly and audibly superior, not just for the main three channels, but particularly for the surround channels.  You got more detail, more clarity, and the ambient effects were more noticeable giving a more enveloping sound.  That's what HT soundtracks are supposed to be all about : the "wrap around / you're there" sensation.

I can really appreciate healthy skepticism.  I was pre-disposed against a lot of "bells & whistles".  But these new lossless movie audio formats are not just some "DSP" (don't know if you meant to imply they were).  It's the difference instead between say a 16 bit 256kbps MP3 and a full hi rez 24 bit 800kbps FLAC file. I'd say the difference is even more noticeable between DD & TruHD (or DTS / DTS-HD MA), as there's even a greater quality gap between the two, and your talking discretely recorded audio channels, vs processed / simulated for DD / DTS. 

As for automated room correction (though we're not specifically discussing this): I was even more skeptical about this.  But Audessy has really proven itself for me - and I have a dedicated room w/ decent acoustics and aside from a 30-40hz bump, no strange acoustical problems.  Even running all magnepans for all 7 channels, there are still substantial differences in the timbre and efficiency of these speakers (even between the 1.7's and the CC5 that presumably have the same panel), and the Audessy really helps to blend / match these speakers both for tone & level, as well as doing so in the time domain.  These are not problems when just running two channel stereo where those two speakers are identical.

Anyway - don't want to be too strident in my arguments & risk having you push back in the other direction.  Borrow that friends Oppo, get a blu ray such as Avatar (or presumably the Hobbit) that has both lossless & DD or DTS soundtrack, and listen for yourself.  You could also get that Marantz I mentioned & return it if you don't feel there's a big enough sound quality difference between DD / DTS vs the lossless hi-rez formats. Fortunately I don't see going to a processor / receiver or blu ray player that can do TruHD or DTS-HD MA having any drawbacks, particularly as the investment to get to that is not so substantial.

Best of luck to you!

[James Romeyn]

Well, at the least you have completely convinced me I have to try it myself!  I'll get a Bluray copy of The Hobbit to test it.  If TrueHD audibly beats DD in this system, I can't wait to hear it.     

[jarcher]

The Hobbit blu ray is DTS-HD Master Audio 7 channel, but does seem to have 5 channel DD French / Spanish soundtrack options.  So though you'll have to listen to it in foreign language, you can at least get a feel for the difference w/out swapping the disk.  Alternatively the hobbit "combo pack" comes w/ a DVD as well, which is dolby digital.

Best of luck & enjoy!

[JRace]

I would have thought there were several black boxes as described in the OP, allowing users to upgrade when HDMI and TrueHD first appeared.

You can only get true hd from blu ray, and so most blu ray players came with analog outs and there was no need for a "black box".

[James Romeyn]

You can only get true hd from blu ray, and so most blu ray players came with analog outs and there was no need for a "black box".

You mean early generation Bluray players, yes?  I only owned two, both Sony, the first one purchased circa 2008.  Current Wifi Sony has no analog outputs, and IIRC same true for the first one.  A Bluray/Wifi with 7.1 analog outs would solve all my problems.   

I use a 2003-04 Pioneer receiver for DD/DTS decoding.  Its DD/DTS performance is superb while its CD decoding may be the worst I've heard save possibly my first gen Philips CDP. 

[James Romeyn]

The Hobbit blu ray is DTS-HD Master Audio 7 channel, but does seem to have 5 channel DD French / Spanish soundtrack options.  So though you'll have to listen to it in foreign language, you can at least get a feel for the difference w/out swapping the disk.  Alternatively the hobbit "combo pack" comes w/ a DVD as well, which is dolby digital.

Best of luck & enjoy!

Do not most receivers allow users to quickly switch from DD(DTS) to TrueHD (MasterHD)?  Or is this rather selected on the Bluray player?

Strangely, when I check the on-screen "display" function, if the disc has "7.1 TrueHD" that's what appears on the screen even though the receiver is only DD/DTS.  (Bluray coax output > receiver.)

Finally for the first time ever saw Star Trek Nemesis...super good effects track...music good but not Hobbit quality.  Didn't know that  Data "died"