What Amps are you using with Ellis Speakers

DavidS · « **on:** 20 Jul 2004, 05:29 am »

Just wondering what amps are working nicely with Ellis speakers. Have a Musical Fidelity 3.2 integrated with mine which is sounding better each day my speakers break in (been away on 2 week road trip holiday so I only have about 40 hours at this point). I am curious about the AKSA dual monos but what else makes a nice combination. I have long lusted after a Blue Cirlce pre and amp as well.

David

salva · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Jul 2004, 01:21 pm »

Nah!, don't kill me .. but we have done ABX tests and found no audible difference at "reasonable" levels between a "cheap" Yamaha RXV640 and a Top of the range Electrocompaniet.

Auditive memory is bad to do comparations, the suggestion enters into play.

So, my suggestion .. Before you buy something do a "proper" AB test, memory could be deciving, and remeber that when you do a AB test is very important to do it at the same level.

Few photos of our testing setup.

http://www.azimut.es/sferrairo/ab/

Salva

stvnharr · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jul 2004, 02:32 pm »

There is no reason for you to not prefer a cheap receiver to a quality amplifier if you perceive no difference between them with whatever setup you choose. However, remember that this is just your own observation and nothing more than that.

salva · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Jul 2004, 06:29 pm »

Yes, I DO agree ... that's what I'm saying ...

Before you spend big bucks in amplification be sure that you perceive the difference in money.

I mean, thing is that under my experience I DO hear differences between 1801's ellis and anything that I've compared both with. So to me they are worth the cost and effort.

Amplification is another thing, I don't hear such evident difference. That's why I'm saying .. before you make any decission, test and decide. Don't assume that more expensive is better.

Salva

DavidS · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Jul 2004, 07:23 pm »

My question wasn't so much what do you think about me changing amps as what amp or pre and amp combos are other Ellis owners using and what does the Ellis match up with real well and why. I am thinking long term here ( maybe 2 - 3 years out) - I would eventually like to move to higher end seperates and just wanted to have a discussion with anyone who owns Ellis' about which amps they are using, how well they work with these speakers, and what that sound is like. Again don't know any other Ellis owners, so just looking to learn from others experiences and ideas.

David

David Ellis · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Jul 2004, 09:45 pm »

Feedback on this seems a little slow. Maybe this is because summer is truly happening in the USA.

This is a good question that is fairly involved. I suppose a proper response would be fairly long, but some of the general concepts are fairly simple.

How much power? How much amplifier is needed? I recommend 35wpc push pull El34 tube or 60wpc SS as a fair minimum (Not Home Theater amps). This will get the 1801s to strain about the same time the amplifier audible strains. While the tube amplifier will indeed clip sooner than the SS amp, it's not very audible. Tubes clip gracefully. For this reason, a tube amplifier will handle strain much easier than a SS amp. So, IMO, 35wpc tube or 60wpc SS will be just fine.

However, I must offer a bit of truth herein. HT amps are rated with a SINGLE channel being driven. When 2 channels (i.e. stereo) are driven from a HT amp, the output will be exactly 1/2 of the advertised rating. This is an industry standard. Stereo amplifiers are rated with both channels being driven simultaneously. Hence, a 60wpc STEREO (i.e. 2 channel) amplfier will produce output equivalent to a 120wpc HT amp.

Pushing more than 35wpc tube or 60wpc SS is possible, but not really needed. I sold my 120wpc Bryston in favor of a 35wpc El34 push pull tube amp about 3 years ago. I'd happily do this again. Quality is more important than quality.

How much quality? Well, this is murky. I have heard some profoundly bad SS amps, and some slightly mushy tube amps. When amps get bad, I prefer a bad tube amp over a bad SS amp. On the good side of things, an amplifier is the sum of the parts used and the design. In this regard, I believe there are a few excellent products available. My opinion on this matter is based upon listening experience, and some knowledge of amplifiers internally. The quality of parts used inside make a difference.

I believe the AKSA amplifiers and VanAlstine products are superior in all regards.

The Marsh audio gear is probably the only sane priced commercial audio gear with good parts under the hood.

I believe the Jolida 302b is a very solid performer that responds extremely well to mods.

I have listened to a bunch of other so-called "good" amplifiers/gear that I thought were sub-par. I will not comment on these.

I feel VERY comfortable recommending the VanAlstine gear to anyone thinking about new gear. Frank does very good work for very little $. The vast majority of the $ spent on Frank's gear arrives where it matters the most - under the hood. Frank's cases aren't fancy, but the guts of his products are extremely well built.

I also agree with the other gent's who commented above. In this regard, I suggest taking your current speakers to a hifi shop. Call ahead and ask the salesman if this is acceptable. Then tell him that you want to hear the difference in source gear. I am sure he will accomodate you. This experience was very educational for me.

My 2c.

Dave

EProvenzano · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jul 2004, 10:47 pm »

Hi,

I don't have time to go into detail, but I'm thoroughly enjoying my Jolida 801A with 1801's.

I recently downsized my system, moving from solid state separates and active XO,
to a CDP--->Integrated (801A)--->1801 sytem. The KISS principle is proving itself to me in my system....

I have to say that the new system, including the Jolida, is an improvement in almost every regard.
For your reference, my 801A is completely modified with new caps, diodes, resistors, RCA jacks, and volume control.

Good parts = great sound...in my case (thanks for the suggestions Dave

)

Happy listening,
EP

Rocket · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jul 2004, 03:27 am »

Hi Dave,

Quote

I believe the AKSA amplifiers and VanAlstine products are superior in all regards.

Read with interest your previous post where you mentioned the aksa and van alstine amps.

Have you had the opportunity to listen to an aksa amp? The amps have all the attributes that i like i.e. speed, transients, transparency and smooth top end.

regards

rocket

stvnharr · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jul 2004, 03:53 am »

David S.,
You will do really well with Aksa amps!!! Take it from a proud owner, and former 1801 owner. The Aksa's outperform most other amps, including the very pricey ones.

Salva,
I only mentioned that you could prefer whatever you wanted.
Your supposed ABX only showed that the preamp section of your receiver is not very good. A more valid comparison might have been an Electrocompaniet preamp/amp combo compared to your receiver.
But as always, you can prefer anything you want.

stvnharr · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Jul 2004, 04:04 am »

OOPS,
Salva, please disregard my above post.
Happy listening

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Jul 2004, 04:05 am »

stvnharr, looking at the pictures that Salva provided, it would seem to me that he used an Electrocompaniet preamp, not the receiver's preamp section.

salva · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Jul 2004, 12:08 pm »

Yes, that is correct.

I did tested the whole Rotel HDCD + Electrocompaniet (preamp + amp) vs Low cost CD + Yamaha HT.

To us (three ppl) doing the test there was no "audible" difference. Again, that was under "low or medium" levels and with "selectec" recordings (Reference Recording and Chesky).

We are in a spanish group that make "blind" tests in order to "compare" sources, amplifiers and cables.

http://www.matrixhifi.com

(press on the red pill)

Until now the referece speakers where LR Orion and BW 804. Now the ellis are used as well, (by the way, just received two kits more).

But the ultimate decision has to be yours, and you have to trust your ears.

Salva

David Ellis · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Jul 2004, 12:58 pm »

Salva,

4-5 years ago I listened to a Rotel 971. I wasn't impressed. This CD player received very good reviews from Steroephile and was "B" rated. My repeated comments for the Anthem CD-1 from Audio Review are:

Quote

I listened to this CD player in the same setting, and compared it to a Wadia 830, and the Rotel 971. After reading the reviews on the Rotel 971, I figured this would be the unit I would likely buy. After my comparison, the Anthem was far superior to the Rotel! The difference was astounding!

The Rotel sounded very harsh and grainy compared to the Anthem. I wouldn't say it sounded poor, but the Rotel wasn't even in the same league as the Anthem. The Wadia sounded slightly better than the Anthem, but not much beter. On a scale of 1 to 10, if the Rotel scored a 1, and the Wadia scored a 10, the Anthem was a solid 8.5.

And given the diffrence in cost, the Anthem wins hands down! If you are in the market for a decent CD player and have some budget (wife) concerns, this is the one to buy! And it even holds 6 CD's!

I bought mine for $920 used. Please e-mail me if you have any questions. thanks for reading.

This might have some utility in your situation so I thought it might be worth mentioning.

I must admit that I have an old Kenwood receiver that sounds fairly decent. I must also admit hearing a 5yr old NAD that was quite painful. Amplifiers are somewhat of a mystery to me. Some of that old commercial stuff actually sounds accaptable.

Rocket · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 03:29 am »

Hi DavidS,

You should read the aksa thread regarding the audition tour of the aksa 100 nirvana plus (the latest and best upgrade by aksa). Here is the link:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=11644&start=10

Imo so long as you have good quality components speakers give you the best improvement and second is the amplifier.

best wishes

rocket

David Ellis · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 02:02 am »

I spent some time reading the AKSA site, but didn't really see... well... what you intended

What should I see in that string?

I have considered building an AKSA amp, but simply haven't done this. While I certainly could get into this, I haven't done so for 3 reasons.

1. Most of my customers simply aren't willing to build an amplifier. Any of my experience gained from building an amplifier would be fruitless.

2. While I am sure the AKSA is a very good amplifier, Scott Endler told me a few years ago the Velleman K4005 was slightly superior. While this is only 1 guy's opinion, I deem Scott very reliable. He is a EE, and has built many amplifiers. One of them was the AKSA. While the AKSA has really taken-hold, I am not sure it's the best sane-priced amplfier to build. Indeed the AKSA is well supported and sounds very good to everyone exposed. For both of these resons, the AKSA is a very solid use of $. I have no problem understanding comparisons with the AKSA products and other stuff costing 3-5x$.

3. I have speakers to build. My customers are waiting, waiting, waiting.... Getting sidetracked with amplifiers would be interesting, but my gamut is speakers. My wife estimates that I have 6000-10000 hours into speakers. I need to use this experience/education effectively. I need to focus my time on speakers. Building amplifiers is very tangential in this regard.

Hopefully this makes sense. Please understand that I believe the AKSA is indeed a very solid product. That's why I recommend it.

Further, I don't have a preamp. Having a separate AKSA amplfier for audition would be very impractical.

Dave

Rocket · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 03:50 am »

Hi Dave,

I perfectly understand your predicament. Time is a premium, especially with a young family.

If you read the first page of the thread you can place your name on the us audition tour of the aksa 100 nirvana plus (which is the seriously tweaked out version of the aksa). Have a listen for yourself as it will only cost postage to the next destination.

Best wishes

rod

Al Garay · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 03:53 am »

The regular AKSA is good. Perhaps that's the one Scott listened in his comparison. But the Nirvana upgrade makes is very special. I have been very happy with my AKSA 100 watt Nirvana monoblocks driving the 1801s. I wish I had another pair to drive a pair of woofers.

Hugh continues to improve his kits. Recently, he released a Nirvana Plus upgrade which is the one that is going on tour in the US. I bet it will surprise a lot of owners of $10K+ amplifiers.

Do not forget the preamp. I love my BentAudio transformer based passive preamp. But, I would seriously look at the AKSA GK1 kit as well.

The 1801s really show improvements in electronics. It can sound dull, thin, harsh with average equipment.

Good luck,

AL

stvnharr · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:05 am »

Dave,
Pity that it's a bit too far from Omaha to Rock Springs as you could have a proper audition. Failing that, the Aksa 100 Nirvana tour would be perfect for you. If your customers are going to ask you about this stuff, it might not be a bad idea.
Basing your opinion on a bit of reading on a web page or an old comparison opinion is not real valid. The Aksa amp as now configured is different from the one the opinion was based on. Also, Aksa's are well spoken of by many these days. Velleman??????

Of course you only have time for speakers, and not enough time for even that with everything else going on in life.

And you are correct in that you just need to stick to the speaker stuff.

David Ellis · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:34 pm »

Quote

Basing your opinion on a bit of reading on a web page or an old comparison opinion is not real valid.

Yep, I understand and agree. I must also add that Scott's recommendation happened via email. His comment was "against the grain" when mentioned. Your next thought was already valid:

Quote

Also, Aksa's are well spoken of by many these days. Velleman??????

Yep, that's why in my initial post I mentioned the AKSA, but not the Velleman K4005. I think there is significant merit to popularity, but popularity isn't always connected with value. Please consider the most popular commercial audio product line. Hint, it starts with the letter "B". This product is quite poor by our standards, but has excellent product representation & support. Having support for a DIY project is VERY important too! The AKSA has an exemplary support network. The Velleman K4005 - what support??

// Eventually I'll get some more power for my home amp, but I only need this for testing.

I think we agree on this subject, but some clarification was needed.

Dave

Mudjock · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Oct 2004, 04:21 pm »

I've been intrigued by the discussions on AC and in other places regarding digital amplifiers and decent-sounding yet cheap dvd players. So, I have picked up Panasonic SA-XR25 and JVC RX-ES1SL receivers, and a Toshiba 3950 DVD player to audition (at a TOTAL cost less than $300). Results so far on Ellis 1801A's:

1. The Toshiba DVD player ($50, Best Buy) in stock form is a little less extended than some, but midrange performance is particularly good. Ultimately it was good enough to retire my Monarchy DIP 2496 - MSB link DAC II combo. Reportedly mods can help the extension issue - maybe I will get to that eventually, but I am enjoying the music as is.

2. The Panasonic receiver is very transparent and revealing. I found mine on ebay (second hand without remote) for around $80 including shipping. It lacks a little of the fullness of my traditional "he-man" solid state gear (Continuum Audio Stage Amp and Sim Audio Celeste Preamp) but really excels in revealing the attack and decay of instruments.

3. The JVC is a little warmer sounding and a little less revealing than the Panny. It also takes a little longer to break in (several hundred hours). Interesting thing about the JVC is that it never sounds harsh and doesn't exaggerate the attack of instruments the way most "high resolution" solid state gear does. This allows you to better hear reverberations and resonances that give sounds much of its character. Tube gear also does this - but the JVC is different, maybe due to its high damping factor.

Summary: Now that the JVC is in my system and is showing signs of breaking in, it seems unlikely that it will be coming out any time soon. The amazing thing is that $200 worth of equipment is driving my 1801's and I have no particular desire to replace anything - even with $1000's of other equipment sitting on the shelf. Some people are having a better experience than others with the new digital equipment, but it at least represents an interesting alternative to more costly, more energy and space-consuming equipment.

Also, The SAF bonus points from replacing a rack full of equipment with a slimline receiver and dvd player is not insignificant.