[WGH]

I have been following the NCore saga ever since 6 Moons review in February 2012 and the start of the NCore Circle so I jumped at the chance to get one on a long term loan this summer. I was more curious than itching for a switch being more than satisfied with the new AVA FET Valve Hybrid DAC, AVA FET Valve Hybrid pre-amp and Synergy 450 amp driving the Salk HT2-TL speakers. Wiring is Straightwire Encore and a double run of Kimber 4VS.

With all the glowing reviews I was ready to love this little guy but so far the NCore has been a big let down. Admittedly on it's own it can sound great. A friend and his son came by for a listening session, it's good to have a young pair of ears in the mix, and he loved them - until I replaced the NCore with the Synergy 450. The NCores then sounded unexciting, the mid-range was recessed, the highs are a little brittle, and the bass is not as defined or as deep as the AVA amp.

Salk speakers are not a bright speaker, in fact at first listen they might sound a little dull but in reality it's all there. The RAAL tweeter is very smooth with very little distortion so it can reveal anything amiss upstream and it revealed the NCores limitations. Change the tweeter to a silk dome and you'll never hear it. I have heard pre-amps, interconnects and speaker wire that soften the highs so perhaps a combination of those elements tune the NCore's sound in systems.

fsimms post illustrates the point that getting the NCore to sound good may require a bit of tuning:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=117771.msg1236460#msg1236460
...I then used warm NOS Mullard tubes in my tube preamp and the McCormack easily lost the battle.  By comparison, the McCormack seemed to be less clear and less musical.  The McCormack did a bit better with low bass impact.... The Mullards did seem to soften the high treble...


Bass was real close, I could live with it but the mid-range was the deal breaker, it just didn't work with the HT2-TL's.

Steve said it pretty well (it's all my fault, I invited him over):

I listened to the Ncores with the Salk HT2-TL speakers.  Unfortunately, it was very apparent that they were a bit disappointing on the many vocals we listened to, as they rendered the vocals unnaturally thin and nasal compared to the AVA Synergy 450 and modified Naim amplifiers (both very good amplifiers in their own right) that got the vocals just right.  They also were a bit shrill on super dynamic high frequency passages that the other amplifiers rendered without harshness.

The Ncores won for efficiency/power saving and a smaller enclosure, but were just lacking in sound compared to the other amplifiers.  I was a little surprised after all the hype and for the fact that the Salk HT2-TL are probably fairly representative of a fair number of 4Ω, ~ 88dB speakers with conventional cone drivers and ribbon tweeters.

Class D amplifiers in general seem to have more variable results depending on the speaker type and load, and these were no different.  I'm sure there are speakers that sound much better when paired with the Ncores, but these Salks were not one of them.

We all did agree that the little round Ncore modules were cute as a button, though.  And that the Salk HT2-TL are very nice speakers.

I recommend an audition before purchasing.

Steve

Edited to correct the AVA amplifier model from Synergy 350 to Synergy 450

I also had a second listening session with a totally system at flashgo's house with his modded Naim electronics and Linn Isobaric speakers. The primary reason was to compare DAC's but we did stick the NCore in for a trial. I was not familiar with the sound of his system but the look of horror and disgust on flashgo's face told it all, the NCore didn't stay plugged in for very long.

DAC Comparison http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=117771.msg1236415#msg1236415


Tyson's conclusion was spot on, this is an excerpt, click on the link - he liked them - sort of:

So, how did my tube amps fare?  Worse in every category I can think of except one.  The one area the tubes did better was tonal density.  There were simply more tonal variety and saturation for different instruments.  Not so much in the highs, which sounded pretty much the same on both amps, but in the mids.  Easier to hear the difference between violins, violas, cellos, and double basses. 

Unfortunately, tonality is the single most important factor for me when listening to a system, so the tube amps are staying.  They actually did pretty well in the dynamics, transparency, soundstaging areas, but were definitely not at the level of the nCores.

So I guess I'm a tone guy. The NCores have a terrific soundstage and dynamics but the tone just doesn't do it for me.

All you guys can't be wrong. Maybe I got a bum one, anyone got an NCore in Tucson or Phoenix we can compare this one to? Expect follow-ups.

Wayne

 

[a.wayne]

NCores and Wayne's ........... 

Are you able to post up the impedance mag and phase on your Salks and for the record, we found similarities with the Class-d Rotels and Bel Canto's compared to a Krell KSA300 and Threshold S500's ...


Regards...

[barrows]

Rotel, and the bel cantos use ICE modules.  I am very familiar with how ICE based amps sound, and find very little common ground between them and nCore.  In fact, anyone who mentions similarities between these two amps has got me wondering what the heck is going on???

Additionally, I think it is very important for the nCores to remain powered up, they really do not sound all that good on power up from cold, and generally seem to need to be powered up for quite awhile to sound good (hours at least, if not overnight).  So quick comparisons of this type will not give a valid impression of how they sound.

[WGH]

Additionally, I think it is very important for the nCores to remain powered up, they really do not sound all that good on power up from cold, and generally seem to need to be powered up for quite awhile to sound good (hours at least, if not overnight).  So quick comparisons of this type will not give a valid impression of how they sound.

I have never read that before. I have had them on for hours while I put down a wood floor in my bedroom. A good test of a system is do something else in another room. If a song draws you back in to sit in the sweet spot you got a winner, this never happened with the NCore.

I got pics:





The only impedance or phase plots for the HT2-TL I have seen is at Audioholics but the measurements may not be current because the tweeter is different.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/salk-sound-veracity-ht2-tl/ht2-tl-set-up

Wayne

[a.wayne]

Rotel, and the bel cantos use ICE modules.  I am very familiar with how ICE based amps sound, and find very little common ground between them and nCore.  In fact, anyone who mentions similarities between these two amps has got me wondering what the heck is going on???

Additionally, I think it is very important for the nCores to remain powered up, they really do not sound all that good on power up from cold, and generally seem to need to be powered up for quite awhile to sound good (hours at least, if not overnight).  So quick comparisons of this type will not give a valid impression of how they sound.

Well step aside buddy, there are those who prefer the Ice sound to Hypex...... Go figure .......

[rollo]

  Guys as an aside please be advised that these class "D" amps do not sound as good from a cold start after being unplugged for awhile. When we demo class "D" we plug the amps in for at least an hour before any music is played. Actually we prefer not traveling with the amps. They need to settle all over again. Why ?? WTFK. Our manf. tells us it is the power supply.
   So if one is to demo any class "D" amp let it sit a day or two plugged in. Our experience anyway.


charles

[fsimms]

Thanks Barrows and Charles.  You posted at the right time.  I powered down the NCores yesterday to make a configuration change.  I then played my Gerry Rafferty album and it sounded so bad that I questioned my judgment that the NCores were for me.  I switched back to my old McCormack and the sound was so much better.  After leaving the NCores on all night, I played the album again.  It sounds wonderful.  I still miss the warmth of the McCormack with this LP, but the NCores have other charms that make it a good trade for me.  The NCores seem more natural, transparent and detailed.  This LP doesn’t show off the NCores great sound staging abilities.

Wayne, your descriptions sound like what I am hearing.  If anything your descriptions sound better than what I am hearing when I cold power the NCores.  I have a break before make switch on the speaker wires so I can switch between hot amps safely.  This allows me to do an instant A/B comparison without power cycling. 

The NCores belong to a friend of mine and I have only had them for about three weeks and am still learning about them.  I haven’t yet checked out the brittle highs you talk about as I want to bypass my tube amp for that test. 

Bob

[James Romeyn]

Salk speakers are not a bright speaker, in fact at first listen they might sound a little dull but in reality it's all there. The RAAL tweeter is very smooth with very little distortion so it can reveal anything amiss upstream and it revealed the NCores limitations. Change the tweeter to a silk dome and you'll never hear it...

By "silk tweeter" do you mean any silk tweeter on the planet earth?  You have heard them all, including those selling for several hundreds of dollars employed in $100k/pr msrp systems?  I'd love to see your database.  Possibly a  glaring, useless, and only misleading generalization.   

Speakers are engineered systems, more so multi way speakers than single driver.  IOW there is no such thing as simply removing a ribbon tweeter and replacing it with a dome then making accurate generalizations based on results.   

Please correct me if wrong, but IIRC John Krutke of Zaph Audio thoroughly tested THD of RAAL tweeters.  The best domes he tested post significantly lower THD. 

[*Scotty*]

I don't think WGH needs to alter his statement regarding silk dome tweeters.
It is his OPINION after all.
Scotty

[barrows]

Yeah, sweeping generalisations about soft dome tweeters probably should be avoided, consider: should we equate the Raal with all ribbons?
My speakers use the older top of the line Revelator tweeters, these are pretty good tweeters, probably the new Air Circ model is a teeny bit better in an equal implementation, but we are talking world class drivers here in any case.
I suspect that what we are really discussing here are symptoms of system matching more than anything else.  The more I listen to the nCore with different sources, the more I conclude that the nCore is the transparent component, and it is just revealing the strengths and weaknesses of what is around it.  Although, I will suggest my nCore amp improved in body by upgrading the AC input wiring from stock (as always YMMV).  Certainly, if you take a slightly foggy, slighty warm, tubby amp out of a system, and plop in the nCore, the nCore will sound lean by comparison: who is to blame here?
I just listened to nCore on a different DAC for test purposes of a network player (Sonore Rendu, excellent BTW).  This DAC has a Wolfson 8741 with discrete regulators, and with a TI OPA1632 based output stage.  The nCore clearly revealed why I prefer my ESS based B-IIIse DAC with its fully discrete no global feedback output stage.  While the OPA1632 DAC had tons of air, and detail up the ying yang, it did not have the organic character, and fully fleshed out midrange properties (while retaining all the detail as well) which are present with the discrete output stage DAC.  If I do the same comparison with my Pass X150.5, the differences are still audible, but they are reduced-my conclusion from this is that the Pass is adding a little color of its own, which is reducing the differences between the two DACs.
The nCore is really helping me fine tune my DAC build, and hear differences between different modes of operation, as well as power supply configurations, resistor choices, etc.  And for sure, leave them powered up-standby, via nAmpon seems OK to use though, with an hour warm up period or so.

[simoon]

Please correct me if wrong, but IIRC John Krutke of Zaph Audio thoroughly tested THD of RAAL tweeters.  The best domes he tested post significantly lower THD.

I just recently read some interesting comments by another speaker designer, on another site, that Krutke did not test them correctly. He had them crossed over too low, and the slopes were too shallow. His higher distortion specs were due to this, not inherent shortcomings in the tweeters themselves.

[WGH]

By "silk tweeter" do you mean any silk tweeter on the planet earth?  You have heard them all, including those selling for several hundreds of dollars employed in $100k/pr msrp systems?  I'd love to see your database.  Possibly a  glaring, useless, and only misleading generalization.   

  It was an broad generalization, not a fact. I think almost everyone understood what I meant. Generally and historically speaking silk dome tweeters have a sweeter and less aggressive presentation compared to say...a metal dome; a more forgiving and musical representation of poorly recorded music than a ruthlessly revealing warts and all design.

I like the Revelator tweeters and the beryllium tweeter by ScanSpeak sounds excellent pared with the Revelator 4531 in the Odyssey Reference Monitor.

Wayne

[barrows]

Wayne:  Hmmm?  I am confused.  Most seem to describe the Raal as having a rather relaxed presentation?  I do not know, as I have not listened to a speaker featuring the raal at length.
In any case, I think it is misleading to suggest that metal domes might be more accurate than the best soft domes.  Generally speaking, what metal domes do offer is big resonant peaks, often very close to the range in which one wants to use them.  It is most peoples' opinion that these resonant peaks are responsible for the often forward, even harsh sound sometimes associated with metal domes (metal mid ranges often have these problems as well).  Even the very best beryllium domes have this problem (look at the response curves for Scan Speak's beryllium dome versus the same model tweeter with the soft dome, the air circ).  Using metal domes can be quite complex for the speaker designer, usually requiring the use of complex notch filters and such (near the audible range) to tame the resonances.

What is happening very often with a metal dome tweeter, is that the audiophile is forced to pair such a speaker with a very forgiving system, in order to get listenable treble response-OK, of course this is a generalisation, and some metal domes may be implemented in a such a way as this is not a problem, as in Rockport's designs with the Scan Speak Beryllium tweeter.

My point being, that it is generally easier for a speaker designer to produce an accurate (without resonant peaks making it bright) and neutral treble response with a soft dome tweeter than a metal dome.  Note that YG Acoustics still uses a customised version of the Scan Speak soft dome in their top of the line over $100K speakers, even though they could certainly afford to use the beryllium model.

[Russell Dawkins]

This taught me something about beryllium characteristics - the tuning fork experiment with three identical size tuning forks machined out of aluminum, titanium and beryllium and demo'd at a trade show:
http://materion.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/Electrofusion/TTB002_TuningForks.pdf

and some definitive further data (unfortunately, silk domes are not included in the comparison):
http://materion.com/~/media/Files/PDFs/Electrofusion/PLS2011PAPERFINAL.pdf

[barrows]

Russell: thanks for the info, I think it is relatively understood now that for a metal dome tweeter, beryllium is the best material, if it is done right.  Some berylliuym domes are a lot better than others, and then of course there is the entire rest of the design...
I encourage folks to take a look at the Scan Speak website, and compare the frequency response of their best soft dome (the air circ) and their beryllium model.  These are two tweeters where the only difference is the dome material, my understanding is that the rest of the design is the same.  The beryllium dome extends a little further, but the response is also a lot more ragged.  This has some serious implications for speaker designers who want to use it.  I recall reading an interview with Andy Payor (Rockport) who mentioned that the Scan Speak beryllium is a great tweeter, but that it requires some very tricky manipulations to make it work well.

[WGH]

Now finally I'll have to admit using the silk/metal dome comparison was a not such a good idea, these days there is probably not much difference between the two. It's probably an age thing. Back in the stereo stone age of the '70's metal domes had a bad reputation and I retained those prejudices. Solid state electronics were harsher sounding back then and a soft dome tweeter just sounded better, the Acoustic Research 3a speaker is one example but if you heard one today it would sound very rolled off in the highs. The 3a's at a clients house certainly did.

Now if you want to hear beryllium done well check out the TAD Compact Reference 1 or the other TAD models.

And yes, the RAAL do have a relaxed presentation but that does not infer that are rolled off, they just don't call attention to themselves like the YG speakers that boldly announce their presence and demand your attention.

Wayne

[James Romeyn]

I just recently read some interesting comments by another speaker designer, on another site, that Krutke did not test them correctly. He had them crossed over too low, and the slopes were too shallow. His higher distortion specs were due to this, not inherent shortcomings in the tweeters themselves.

My bad.  I checked John's website.  He indeed tested several ribbons and planars but not the RAAL. 

http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

[tktran303]

What an interesting report of your listening impressions.

Your listening impressions may be personally valid, but whether the conclusions drawn are valid from
an empirical test point of view is difficult.

Were you able to control for any potential sources of bias?

Was the voltage gain on the 2 different power amplifier adjusted to be equal?
Or did you use a level compensated preamplifier? Did you try an unsighted
listening comparison?

I have done a variety of listening comparions and found many fascinating results.
Recently a listener asked me if we were listening to a Class A amplifier,
when in fact it was a class D amplifier sitting next to a class A (famous brand model,
turned off) He was enjoying himself until I told him it was class D and his mood changed.

Other people opening ridiculed the minuscule size, lack of weight in he power supply,
or use of cheap gold plated copper binding posts. Turns out I had plugged in
the famous class A...

You may think you can trust your ears, but the brain/ear/emotion interface is complex...

[roscoeiii]

but whether the conclusions drawn are valid from
an empirical test point of view is difficult.

C'mon, let's not second guess the hell out of others impressions. Yes, WGH may or may not have done blind listening tests. And I will assume that the amps were level matched, if time and circumstances permitted it.

On the ncore tour, I found the same thing that WGH mentioned about the ncores. They were fabulous at the extremes, but jackman and I preferred the midrange of his Coda amp to the ncore, which wasn't as fleshed out. Though, jackman did end up buying ncores, and I think his preamp helped address the midrange leanness he heard in my system with the ncores and my preamp (Musical Fidelity kW).

tktran303, I don't know where you fall on the ncore fanboy spectrum, but I hope you would have written the same thing even if the conclusions were reversed.

[WGH]

Were you able to control for any potential sources of bias?

Was the voltage gain on the 2 different power amplifier adjusted to be equal?
Or did you use a level compensated preamplifier? Did you try an unsighted
listening comparison?

If there was any bias, it was for the NCore going into the comparison.

The amp comparison was a fun way to spend a hot Tucson afternoon, not a scientific experiment. We plugged them in and listened. The NCore has enough potential that Herman may still build a pair for the woofers of his tri-amped speakers knowing they can easily be sold if they don't work out.

Wayne