[rbbert]

I think we all have music we don't like (duh!), and often whole music genres we don't care for.  So what?

[Devil Doc]

Roscoe, I had considered it, but now I don't think so. Tough guys, hiding behind keyboards annoy me.
Scotty, you're right. I could have worded that post better.

Doc

[roscoeiii]

I make no claims of being tough. But I will speak up when I find folks putting other ACers. That's not the type of community I want to be a part of.

And I have certainly said similar things to RClark when his ncore amp enthusiasm goes too far and doesn't take into account that folks' tastes differ.

[rajacat]

I think we all have music we don't like (duh!), and often whole music genres we don't care for.  So what?

+1

[Rclark]

Roscoe you'll make a good moderator. And Doc, you're welcome to hate BB in my thread, I don't care. You can't please everyone! Not even Miles Davis can, apparently.

[Devil Doc]

I don't hate BB, but I'm pretty sure I know why the music was conceived, to get young folks to buy tickets to jazz concerts. Davis was irked that three chord rock and roll bands were filling stadiums, while he was having trouble filling clubs. So, he took Jazz, added electric bass and a back beat and viola, music for the masses. It worked for a while. But it wasn't Jazz and it sure as hell wasn't Rock and Roll.

Doc

[Diamond Dog]

I don't hate BB, but I'm pretty sure I know why the music was conceived, to get young folks to buy tickets to jazz concerts

Doc

And thank God for that. I can't think of another jazz artist who has drawn as many new listeners to the genre as Miles Davis. Maybe he understood that if the aficionados and purists were allowed to treat jazz as their private little treehouse, it could not and would not survive. He was certainly my gateway into jazz and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in saying that. Thank you Miles !

D.D.

[95Dyna]

I never said I didn't at one time like it, in fact I own all those albums I mentioned. I just grew up, and here's hoping RClark does too.

Doc

OK  Devil Doc, you've made your point.  This post is now officially insulting to the host of this thread and to all us who have the ability to wrap our brains around these brilliant works.  I enjoy Bitches Brew on a far deeper level now than when I first heard it at the age of 18, 44 years ago.  Kinda like the Alice in Wonderland effect.  I don't know how old you are but if I were to guess I'd say about 22.

[barrows]

I don't hate BB, but I'm pretty sure I know why the music was conceived, to get young folks to buy tickets to jazz concerts. Davis was irked that three chord rock and roll bands were filling stadiums, while he was having trouble filling clubs. So, he took Jazz, added electric bass and a back beat and viola, music for the masses. It worked for a while. But it wasn't Jazz and it sure as hell wasn't Rock and Roll.

Doc

Doc, you are correct, but only partly so.  Miles Davis always wanted his music to reach as many people as possible, he wanted to be popular.  This was true in the 50s, the 60s, and the 70s, and his choices in his musical direction were partly based on this desire.  The other desire he had was to always be moving and progressive in music, he was not one to rest on his laurels, and he disliked the way his fans often wanted him to play, "like the old Miles", whatever the era was.  This is all pretty well documented.  My father was big Miles/Gil Evans era fan, as such he pretty much hated the late 50s and 60s great quintets/sextets, he never progressed along with Miles in his musical tastes (not that there is anything wrong with that).  Miles Davis did not think of himself as a Jazz musician, he just thought of himself as a musician.  Your statement that Miles' music of the BB period is "not jazz" is entirely incorrect though, the definition of Jazz includes the fact that it is a mutable musical form-it is funny to me that some people only think that Jazz is very narrowly defined to one, or maybe two periods of the history of the music.
Of course, you do not have to like the BB period of music, everyone gets to have their own taste and preferences, but it is important to point out that Miles Davis' intent in creating BB brew was no different than that which led to Kind of Blue.

[lcrim]

Of course, you do not have to like the BB period of music, everyone gets to have their own taste and preferences, but it is important to point out that Miles Davis' intent in creating BB brew was no different than that which led to Kind of Blue.

Thank you, barrows, this was very well put. 
Please keep this discussion on the music and the musicians and not fighting w/ each other.

Larry
the facilitator

[Rclark]

The funny thing is I didn't even realize I was listening to a new genre. It was just jaw on the floor for an hour or so. The reason is I have a large library of anything and everything and I listen to all of it. And it was fascinating to hear where some of it came from, the roots of it.

I could hear everything from Radiohead to Metallica, to Jay Z in this album.

[Tyson]

"I got 99 problems but Bitches Brew ain't one!"

[Rclark]

[firedog]

+1 to Barrows

I agree Miles always wanted to be popular, was looking continuously for new things, and was at the same time trying to make "good music".

I understand why people don't like BB. But that doesn't make it simplistic, a sell out, or whatever you want call it.

It certainly seems like a continuation of things he had been working towards for a couple of years. To me it's not that different than "In a Silent Way", which for whatever reason, though it was popular, is considered a "serious" album, and not a "pop" or "sellout" album. I'm not sure why it should be considered wrong for someone playing in the late 60's to try and incorporate some of the innovations (and yes, they were) by rock musicians like Hendrix.

In the big picture if you listen to BB and forget preconceptions, it is anything but simple or "pop". It's now over 40 years later and your average person would still find this music weird, challenging, and even unlistenable. It sounds "dated", but only in the sense that the style isn't really played anymore. The music itself still is fresh and interesting. I certainly wish some of the electronic music made today had this level of playing and sophistication.

The allmusic.com Bio sums up Miles this way:

Miles Davis took an all-inclusive, constantly restless approach to jazz that had begun to fall out of favor by the time of his death, even as it earned him controversy during his lifetime. It was hard to recognize the bebop acolyte of Charlie Parker in the flamboyantly dressed leader with the hair extensions who seemed to keep one foot on a wah-wah pedal and one hand on an electric keyboard in his later years. But he did much to popularize jazz, reversing the trend away from commercial appeal that bebop began. And whatever the fripperies and explorations, he retained an ability to play moving solos that endeared him to audiences and demonstrated his affinity with tradition. At a time when jazz is inclining toward academia and repertory orchestras rather than moving forward, he is a reminder of the music's essential quality of boundless invention, using all available means.

Well said.

[etcarroll]

Started buying vinyl again after my divorce in '10, (I'm 56), having grown up on rock, but thought it time to develop my interest in classical. That, and Pumpkinman introed me to a vinyl shop that sold all classical for $1. And each time I went in I glanced at jazz section, maybe bought a title or 2.

Now '13, and I buy mostly jazz, with the occasional classical title. Have all of Miles' work, and love him. But BB is a quandary for me. I put it on once a month and listen, and often walk away gently massaging my temples wondering what's happening there.

It's like a closed door I walk up to monthly and knock on, I hear movement behind it, but the door doesn't open, so I walk away and try again a month later. Of late I find the door cracked open as I came to appreciate "Miles Runs the VooDoo Down", and other pieces growing on me, still the whole is not fully open to me.

But I keep trying 'cuz it seems there's 'something' there that's just out of my reach.

I get why some don't care for this whatsoever, it's not readily accessible. I wouldn't recommend this to a new listener, in fact I gave KoB and some other top titles to a co-worker and made a point to tell him NOT to listen to BB. I equated it to single malt scotch, and how the last scotch a new drinker should try is one of the very smoky 'peaty' ones, not only would it put you off single malt, it just might put you off of scotch entirely. And that would be a shame. I also have the same issue with Lagavulin that I have with BB.

I guess I'm saying that BB is the Lagavulin of jazz.

Not readily accessible, especially to noobs of either genre, but worth the effort in the end to those who keep at it.

[95Dyna]

Started buying vinyl again after my divorce in '10, (I'm 56), having grown up on rock, but thought it time to develop my interest in classical. That, and Pumpkinman introed me to a vinyl shop that sold all classical for $1. And each time I went in I glanced at jazz section, maybe bought a title or 2.

Now '13, and I buy mostly jazz, with the occasional classical title. Have all of Miles' work, and love him. But BB is a quandary for me. I put it on once a month and listen, and often walk away gently massaging my temples wondering what's happening there.

It's like a closed door I walk up to monthly and knock on, I hear movement behind it, but the door doesn't open, so I walk away and try again a month later. Of late I find the door cracked open as I came to appreciate "Miles Runs the VooDoo Down", and other pieces growing on me, still the whole is not fully open to me.

But I keep trying 'cuz it seems there's 'something' there that's just out of my reach.

I get why some don't care for this whatsoever, it's not readily accessible. I wouldn't recommend this to a new listener, in fact I gave KoB and some other top titles to a co-worker and made a point to tell him NOT to listen to BB. I equated it to single malt scotch, and how the last scotch a new drinker should try is one of the very smoky 'peaty' ones, not only would it put you off single malt, it just might put you off of scotch entirely. And that would be a shame. I also have the same issue with Lagavulin that I have with BB.

I guess I'm saying that BB is the Lagavulin of jazz.

Not readily accessible, especially to noobs of either genre, but worth the effort in the end to those who keep at it.

For me the songs on this album, especially Pharaoh's Dance are like walking into a labyrinth with great anticipation and some trepidation.  Around every corner there is something new and interesting causing me to forget I am lost in a maze.  All the new and interesting encounters begin to intersect and become unrecognizable individually for awhile then begin to beautifully resolve.  I look up and see the exit and don't want to traverse it knowing what's on the other side will not be as exhilarating as what I've just experienced.

I can easily understand those who categorize yourselves as noobs to the genre find this inaccessible.  I will admit I've been listening to Miles over 45 years when I got my first of his records at the age of 17, "in A Silent Way".  I can't say I understood it but it was hypnotic and I new there was something to it that would take me time to assimilate.

[roscoeiii]

For me the songs on this album, especially Pharaoh's Dance are like walking into a labyrinth with great anticipation and some trepidation.  Around every corner there is something new and interesting causing me to forget I am lost in a maze.  All the new and interesting encounters begin to intersect and become unrecognizable individually for awhile then begin to beautifully resolve.  I look up and see the exit and don't want to traverse it knowing what's on the other side will not be as exhilarating as what I've just experienced.

I can easily understand those who categorize yourselves as noobs to the genre find this inaccessible.  I will admit I've been listening to Miles over 45 years when I got my first of his records at the age of 17, "in A Silent Way".  I can't say I understood it but it was hypnotic and I new there was something to it that would take me time to assimilate.

Very well put. I also highly recommend any fans of this album to spring for the 40th Anniversary box set. Best of the LP pressing and lots of CDs with extras. If you don't spin vinyl, give or sell the LP to another Music lover.

[Elizabeth]

My perspective is Bitches Brew is Miles Davis on LSD. Having also done LSD  in my late teens it is a total eye opener to alternative thinking. And i personally think Miles Davis had some experiences with mind alteringdrugs which brought him to Bitches Brew et al.
In his bio the women around him at the time were difinitely doing LSD and such. So the album title and the music  IMO clearly go with my theory.
The album as I wrote is a total masterpiece. I love it and the extended release put out by Columbia on CD.
Maybe part of likeing Bitches Brew IS being able to let go of any boundries and flow with what is happening in the music. The music is really amazing, mind blowing and wonderful. IMO of course.

[barrows]

I have the "complete" BB sessions...  I think it is time to get away for the computer for a bit and listen to some of it...

[jimdgoulding]

My perspective is Bitches Brew is Miles Davis on LSD. Having also done LSD  in my late teens it is a total eye opener to alternative thinking. And i personally think Miles Davis had some experiences with mind alteringdrugs which brought him to Bitches Brew et al.
In his bio the women around him at the time were difinitely doing LSD and such. So the album title and the music  IMO clearly go with my theory.
The album as I wrote is a total masterpiece. I love it and the extended release put out by Columbia on CD.
Maybe part of likeing Bitches Brew IS being able to let go of any boundries and flow with what is happening in the music. The music is really amazing, mind blowing and wonderful. IMO of course.

We have two things in common.  One is I read his biography, too.  Saw part of his Bitches Brew band in San Francisco in a small club of which I was a small investor and while I could only get a groove on one track on the album, think I'll give it another go.  You write real good, lady, and have interesting things to say.