Sound Lab's In A Home Theater?!

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Ric Schultz

Re: Sound Lab's In A Home Theater?!
« Reply #40 on: 27 Jun 2013, 05:29 pm »
Jonathon,
Maybe there is a phase issue here.  The Serenity speakers have the mids/highs way forward of the woofers.  Danny uses the phase control on the servo woofs to make them blend.  But is this really as good as physical aligning?  I will find out soon as my own designs using the same drivers are being finished and I will be doing listening tests in the next two weeks.  I have a platform on top of the servo woofs so I can move the mid/high panel forward and back on top to see if physical aligning makes any difference.  The fact that one of the woofers is facing rear does not sit well with me....just don't like the idea of hearing the fundamentals of male voices coming off the back of a cone.  Not to mention the fact that the two drivers are not in alignment with each other.  Then there is the sound of the H-frame running that high.  The sound is coming out of a square tube.  I like the idea of mounting both drivers directly on the front baffle and both firing forward.  Whether any of this makes much difference at these frequencies is something I want to find out.  I am currently running one Alpha 15 in an H-frame crossed over at 200hz at 48db per octave using the Behringer NU3000DSP. The open baffle on top contains one of Danny's 6.5 inch drivers running wide open with a set back (for time aligning) tweeter on top with a cap and resistor xover on it.  I can slide the mid/high baffle front to rear and the sound is mucho better when the voice coils on the mid and woofer are about lined up (much fuller in that same area you are talking about and cleaner).  This is what I have always heard with my own designs.

Of course, the stuff Duke and Josh are mentioning are super worthwhile.

josh358

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Re: Sound Lab's In A Home Theater?!
« Reply #41 on: 28 Jun 2013, 11:40 pm »
An alternative approach to smoothing the interaction with the rear wall (without screwing up the power response) while simultaneously addressing the baffle step and floor-bounce notch is the offset bipole.   Regarding the bounce off the rear wall, the front woofer and rear woofer will have different path lengths to the wall, and therefore the one will tend to fill in the other's notch frequency, and vice versa.  Not a perfect solution, but arguably an improvement at least,   Subjectively, the upper bass/lower midrange region has more power than an equivalent monopole system, something that shows up on cello for instance.   
Very interesting page, thanks. I've been intrigued for some time with the possibility of using controlled-dispersion speakers to minimize early reflections, and then using extra channels to reproduce ambiance. The challenge being to mimic, approximately, the ambient fields of venues of different size, in a manner that doesn't require a specialized treated room.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Sound Lab's In A Home Theater?!
« Reply #42 on: 29 Jun 2013, 12:26 am »
Ric, that idea might hold water if I hadn't heard the same thing (to varied degrees) in both the LS9 (woofers/tweeters sharing a baffle) and the LFT8b (planar dipole tweet/mid, sealed woofer, woofer baffle on the same plane as the planars).  This being true, I can't believe positioning of the drivers to be the root cause.  I would be curious to hear your designs in comparison, however, should the commercial versions be available and you having representation showing at a show in the future. (RMAF this year, maybe?)

I thought I would throw out there that I am sorry to the original poster that this thread has kind of gone off topic.  Feel free to trim the thread and move the unrelated conversation elsewhere into a new thread if need be. :)


(at least sort of on topic. . .) Regarding planars and home theater, one of the coolest surround setups I have had in my home since getting back into this hobby was six Onix/AV123 Strata Minis (L/R/SR/SR/RL/RR) - planar tweeter/planar mid/cone woofer/powered sub run full range on all channels.  I didn't do much with the setup with multichannel music but movies were A LOT of fun.  :thumb:

Ric Schultz

Re: Sound Lab's In A Home Theater?!
« Reply #43 on: 29 Jun 2013, 02:45 am »
The LS9s are crossing over at 600?.....so a suckout at 200 is probably? something to do with the design/room interaction...whatever.  Who knows about the Serenity.  All three of those speakers are quite different.  The planar/hybrid speakers you mention all have the mid/tweets in front of the woofer time wise.  I am not talking about sharing the same baffle...I am talking setting the mid/tweets back to align physically with the woofs.  If you are just guessing and generalizing based on listening to rooms at a show.....well, then it is just a guess.  There are many hybrids out there with many different kinds of sounds....at all frequencies.  Every design needs to be looked at on its own and tweaked for the best sound possible.  Getting that 200hz right is hard with any multiway speaker....and the difference in phase and speed, etc. between planars and slower drivers is always a tricky thing.  However, many hybrids do sound wonderful.  At least with the Serenities and my speakers you have dipole bass and dipole mid/highs.  As you know a box bass explodes its sound in all directions....whereas dipole bass follows what mids and highs do.....but they still need to be time and phase aligned.  Think about how many state of the art box speakers have their mids set back from the woofers.  Those manufactures don't do this for nothing (way harder to manufactuer and implement).  They listened and realized it sounds better.  However, an equal number of all out speakers do not set back the midranges from the woofers.......OMG is there no one right way?!?  Not that I know of.

Mike Lavigne  http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html   has the super expensive Evolution Acoustics speakers that have the additional bass towers.  He said that getting the relationship between the main towers and bass towers just in the exact position and the tilt of the bass towers to his listening position was the difference between really good sound and OMG (he said he moved the main towers back about one inch and then tilted the bass tower very slightly).  His bass towers cross over at something like 40-50hz.  This game is crazy with so many possible answers to things.  I like to take the largest view possible (mostly that I don't know much and that I have to experiment directly to have any idea what is real......and then it might only be real in that one circumstance and in that one system).  "Truth" in audio is hard to nail down.  The room interactions, especially below 400hz are crazy!  This is why I am a SUPER big fan of bi-amping and equalizing the bass.  No room is perfect.  If you equalize the bass at listening position you get some pretty clean bass sounds.....of course, there are tons of other things that control bass response as well.  Also, with bi-amping then the mids and highs do not have to see all the back EMF from the woofers and can be driven much more easily......its just plain cleaner sounding to bi-amp.  Never heard anyone say anything otherwise.

I will be demoing my speakers in the bay area in peoples homes.  This way they can compare directly to their megabuck speakers in their own room using their own equipment (if the results are good, I am sure you will see tons of posts all over the internet...including here).  My plan is to mostly sell kits.  Very dead baffles, bracing and bases can be made by anyone, anywhere.  Open baffle speakers are simple....no box engineering needed.   
« Last Edit: 2 Jul 2013, 11:22 pm by Ric Schultz »