[Danny Richie]

Hey Steve,

Did you know that our speakers are already True Music™ compatible and the True Music™ signal transfer connection is made via tube connectors from Electra Cable. 

http://www.electracable.com/tubeconnector.htm

How's that?

Thanks for writing the article. I have had your same concerns for some time now.

[enjoythemusic]

Wow, many great replies! The article has indeed inundated my e-mail box, various ideas being discussed back and forth, etc. Really am digging what is being said here in many ways.

After much soul searching on my personal definition of 'failure' and what some consider 'success'... Came to realize that no matter what happens, it is great to see this subject being discussed. If, by chance, this allows us to reach just one more person... and they tell two people, and they tell two people... and so on, and so on 

Keep the ideas flowing and it is interesting to see the MANY very valid points being made.

Of course in the end what REALLY matters is that YOU...

Enjoy the Music (One nation under a groove...),

Steven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WOZwwRH6XU

[enjoythemusic]

BTW: Agree there needs to be some minimum standards such as 24-bit/88kHz (this includes music files). Analog/vinyl is where it gets a bit more tricky. Agree it needs not be 'expensive', and thus perhaps three color-coded levels of performance per se (silver, gold, and platinum with gold edges... or something like that).

To the public, mp3 was good during days of low bandwidth and limited storage, but there is something 'new', better.... and equipment that harnesses this potential.

[JohnR]

BTW: Agree there needs to be some minimum standards such as 24-bit/88kHz (this includes music files).

Hi Steve, how does this all tie in with Neil Young's efforts to promote high res recordings? I'm just curious as I don't think I saw any reference to it.

[Danny Richie]

A good friend of mine, and former employee with a graphic design company that I owned, is the curator at our local museum and art center. I have been thinking about asking him what his thoughts might be on setting up a music exhibit. I could set up a system much like I typically take to a show in one of their exhibit rooms pretty easily. I think it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be from a art appreciation crowd.

I challenge any of the other manufacturers to try something similar and see what the results are.

I know that when I exhibit at small shows in hotels, that are also open to the public, I always get a few people looking in the door that have no idea what is going on, and they know nothing about our industry. I always get a kick out of inviting them in for a listen. Their reactions are always the best because it is a first time experience for them. Talk about astonishment... These people are usually stunned.

Likewise when I was helping Scott Clark and his physics class. Each year they did a project that required small groups to work together to build a pair of speakers. They made the 3 hour drive up to my place for a field trip several times during that semester. They would come in small groups of about ten to twelve kids at a time. After the lesson on how speakers worked and how to design a crossover, they got to listen to whatever I had hooked up in my system at the time. The reaction of those kids was priceless every time. They had never heard sound stage and imaging, or resolution levels that high. It was funny listening to them talk about all the subtle things they heard in the music that they didn't know were there before. I'll never forget one girl in particular that talked about how when the female vocalist began to sing, she could hear the sound that her lips made (slight pop) as she opened her mouth to sing. And not only could the vocals be heard clearly but each breath. I loved listening to the kids talk about that stuff with excitement.

We have got to figure out ways to reach the masses if this industry is to survive.

It may indeed be time to share the music. Or time to "Enjoy the Music".   

[DaveC113]

...Their reactions are always the best because it is a first time experience for them. Talk about astonishment... These people are usually stunned...

I agree! It is interesting having friends over who have not heard my system, they have no idea music reproduction can be brought to such a high level and they usually inquire what it would take for them to assemble a similar system.

The failure with marketing "high end" audio is the fact so very few people have experienced it.

[Russell Dawkins]

Maybe the time is now ripe for a concept I tried unsuccessfully to promote here over 30 years ago - a portable large screen and playback system suitable for classroom-size groups that would be capable of delivering, if only for one time in their lives, a concert hall experience to those kids. The idea would be for each school system region to possess one such system and operator and to move it around the region with the object of simply allowing kids at a formative time in their lives this one-time exposure to types of music that they otherwise might never experience. This would be a no-holds-barred quality system. It would also at the same time expose them to what is possible in reproduced sound. I must confess I would favor acoustic music as the demo material (solo piano, small classical and jazz ensembles, big bands and orchestras, etc.) since amplified music is already more accessible at concerts.

I think it would not be too much of a stretch to expect any science museum to have a standing exhibit on sound reproduction - the history of, and the current near state of the art.
The Science Museum in London had an exhibit displaying a QUAD set up - tuner, control unit, amps and ESL57 speakers - for years. although I can't see it now on their site.
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/

What is needed by anyone intending to display in unconventional locations and venues, like craft fairs and conventions, is a practical and easily disassemble-able acoustic space that can be set up within a larger space and able to seat perhaps 6 people. The device would have to block sound transmission to an extent and possess reasonable acoustics. This would be quite a challenge to design. I have tried to design something similar - a portable percussion isolation booth for location recording - and come up short.

[enjoythemusic]

Hi Steve, how does this all tie in with Neil Young's efforts to promote high res recordings?

Did not mention Neil specifically, though we should get him and Meridian can help as they have a good relationship with him.

[NIGHTFALL1970]

To hell with the masses.  They get the sound quality that they want, and that they deserve.  The high end market is driven by people obsessed with sound quality, and that's the way it should stay.  The moment we let in the masses is the moment our industry starts producing "lifestyle systems" in large quantities.  Screw that.

I agree.  I work in an office with a mix of people of all ages.  When I tell any of the younger kids (20s) at work about my system, they look at the prices and say "you are F*****G CRAZY".  I try to explain to them the quality of the sound and they say "it can't possibly sound any better than my Bose! (wave radio)!".  Then when someone wants to put together a "system" they won't even listen to my advice.  I tell them that I am not recommending that they spend what I spent (12K) but that they can get nice stuff for a lot less,  they just shut me out.

To make a long story longer, I had a friend and his kids over my house and I wanted to play them my stereo.  They were ages 8 through 16.  All they wanted to do was watch "How I met your Mother"(?) or something like that.  I said look I have Hendrix, Def Leppard, RUSH..., but all they cared about was watching TV.
I give up.  This younger generation is lost.

[JLM]

Almost by definition dinosaurs never realize they are out of date, obsolete, and no long adaptable.  Yes back in the 50s audio was the geeky/cool technology, then color TV was introduced in the 60s and pong in the 70s.  And since audio has been on the decline.  When will the message be taken to hear by the industry and audio crowd?

Adapt to current conditions or die.  The greater market has less disposable income, smaller homes, and all other forms of entertainment technology available that competes with audio (frankly a rather dull alternative).  The comment above reacting to how much can be spent on audio is spot on.  It's nuts to spend more on a cable upgrade than a whole (decent) system.  I don't care what the 1% (multi-millionaires) have (other than being glad for whatever advances might trickle down to the rest of us).  And consider that modern life has many of us working away from direct human contact, so we may want to be face to face with others in our free time (versus the solitary world of audio with excessive technology).

I wonder (and worry sometimes) for the opposers of 'lifestyle' design.  Should audio be an exclusive/anti-social club?  Should it require a dedicated listening room?  Do I need a platinum credit card or a secret handshake to get in?  Is name dropping and use of the right language a perquisite for admission?  Do we have to be such snobs?  Is the kind of person that fits the non-lifestyle mantra the kind of person you really want to associate with?  And why can't audiophiles learn to get along with A/V enthusiasts?

Yep, that's the audio industry I see.  Mostly old guys extending their childhood hobby into retirement.  You want to kill audio?  Just let it die of old age and snobbery.  Cadillac and Buick finally figured that out and now successfully market to younger generations, even if it alienates their base market.  Amphion is a company that has been brilliantly bridging the gaps between studio and audiophile as well as audiophile and lifestyle.  Many of the AC vendors emphasize value and smaller options that fit the larger market.  NuForce is a good example, embracing earbud to high-end users with modern/compact/high value designs that anyone can use.

Compounding the aging effect with audio is ears that are continue to be less discerning and technology that isn't friendly (notice how many posters here at A/C have IT backgrounds and think computer audio is simple/easy?).  What excites me nowadays is stuff like Audioengine's proposed A2+ ($250/pair, powered speakers with DAC and subwoofer output, just plug into computer/TV/sub for a complete, affordable, simple, compact 2.1 system).  Obviously Audioengine isn't the 'state of the art' but gives an attainable taste to the masses of what quality sound is like while filling the bill for a 2nd system even for us audio snobs.  Another example is KEF LS50 versus X300A.  For a rather slight (in greater world perspective) downgrade of sound quality the X300A adds a DAC and fully active (no power amp or for fully digital system even pre-amp is needed) alternative for half the price with much fewer complications.

Confession - I fit all of the above old fart stereotypes: been into this stuff for 40 years; have a man cave (ironic label eh?); have a $9000 USD system; find the shift to computer based audio daunting; and now have other things to spend $$$ on (like saving for retirement).  Like the old school Cadillac owners (most who never repeat buy) I haven't spent serious money (over $1000 USD) on audio in 10 years.  I've always been more intrigued by compact systems that provide 90% of the sound quality for 10% the cost in a format that fits into life.  Is that so wrong?

[rollo]

JLM  no sir not wrong at all. What is right for you is all that matters. It is all about affordability to the beginner. Sound quality is moot until the newbie has experienced it. With mobile devices and down loading it is easy, cheap and works.
    The gear when paying off college loans and low pay today what chance do they have to get started. Even if all over the TV & radio with Ads and promotion the cost is still the determining factor.
     Our industry needs to get into homes with systems and a way to pay for it. Sears for example sends a rep to a home to sell siding and roofing. The customers usually decide by how much a month they can afford and make a decision. We need to make financing and payment plans available to lessen the bite of the total cost.
     Manufactures need to think outside the box. I say bring back the one brand system From soup to nuts for "X" dollars. Then make it easy to afford.



charles

[enjoythemusic]

JML, wonderful post and very much appreciate the self honesty too. I feel like a guy 'in the middle' as grew up with tube amps and Tannoy then new 1969 12" Gold Monitors, yet loved CSN(&Y), Rush and King Crimson in high school... and my local friends (and wife) tend to be a bit younger and enjoy modern dance music. Agree adapt or die and wondering what 'high-end audio' will be 15 years from now and the age spectrum at that time. We are indeed living in interesting times.

[JLM]

Classic dinosaur example I neglected to mention:

My only local (within 50 miles) non-big box retail audio shop sells Denon but know nothing about their CEOL or other compact wireless receivers.  I drop by occasionally when in the area and they keep saying that they need to get into computer audio, attend audiofests, and find out what the buzz is on the internet.  But in 15 years they haven't so far.  All they've done is to become primarily a home theater store.


Rollo,

The cost for audio is a beginner factor, but not just a beginner factor.  Some just can't get their head around spending $10,000 or evenings tweaking/hair pulling/fretting about details.  The industry to be relevant must fit the world, not wait for the world to fit it (that day has passed).  After 50 years of being increasingly marginalized, mainstream audio has ignored 'the box' as you mentioned for far too long.  The second foot is sliding into the grave right now.  The challenge for audio is to add value/quality to life, to improve the sound of all electronic based sound we listen to, to fit into ordinary lives, without big boxes, bunches of boxes, complex connections/controls, and to do it without sacrificing a car, house downpayment, college education, or retirement.  Bose has done it with over priced crappy stuff, so it should be easy for the rest of the industry with decent/good stuff.  Instead they just moan and cry about it, not wanting to be compared to or compete with Bose (or the rest).  I've always wondered why a soundproofed RV couldn't travel the country and pull right into shopping malls with a couple of nice systems setup for demonstrations (and maybe compare to those overpriced plastic highly marketed systems).


Steven,

Thanks for participating here at A/C.

I dread to think of audio in 15 years, perhaps I'm being too pessimistic.  CDs/DVDs will be gone, vinyl will be a smaller niche, everything will be a download/computer sourced.  I see now a trend towards active speakers, more and more with built-in DACs, so the system will (is) reduced to speakers and computer (or iDevice).  Accordingly use of subwoofers will decline (smaller homes, less income, use of  headphones/earbuds - that will be more accepted in and out of the office).  New faces/companies will take over from legacy names/firms that couldn't see themselves as dinosaurs.  Hopefully there will always be a place for the cottage businesses to market to the niche audio crowd.  But I don't see much room for large/high-end manufacturers that remain dedicated to strictly audio.

[dragoonxp20]

I wonder (and worry sometimes) for the opposers of 'lifestyle' design.  Should audio be an exclusive/anti-social club?  Should it require a dedicated listening room?  Do I need a platinum credit card or a secret handshake to get in?  Is name dropping and use of the right language a perquisite for admission?  Do we have to be such snobs?  Is the kind of person that fits the non-lifestyle mantra the kind of person you really want to associate with?  And why can't audiophiles learn to get along with A/V enthusiasts?

I think a lot of it has to do with perception of the sound quality coming out of the 'lifestyle' designs being inferior to more traditional speakers. I haven't heard any myself, but I'm sure the well designed ones give a taste of higher quality audio. If the industry could develop this area of audio, replacing the overpriced plastic systems sold in best buy, I think that more people would be exposed to the hobby and a percentage will possibly be interested in upgrading to even better systems.

As for the snobbery, I believe it's a defensive mechanism developed from not being generally accepted by the public. The sticker shock usually leads people to alienate audiophiles. However, I think the bigger problem is that people are so deeply rooted in their stereotypes and misconceptions. Honestly, I'm still surprised at the number of people who listen to blazing loud music out of their apple earbuds. I doubt that the majority of people will accept audiophiles even if the industry panders to them, but I feel there's definitely room for expansion of customer base.

The headphone industry seems to have adapted somehow to the newer generations while maintaining the sound quality desired by audiophiles. As a member of the younger generation (Nearly 21 years old), I jumped from crappy headphones, to better ones, to a logitech computer speaker system, to a martin logan htib, to a infinity primus 5 channel system, to a 5 channel klipsch system, to a diy ob line array, to gr research super-v speakers. I see a lot of people willing to buy grado, audio-technica, and sennheiser headphones. I would like to see what they are doing differently than speaker manufacturers.

A good friend of mine, and former employee with a graphic design company that I owned, is the curator at our local museum and art center. I have been thinking about asking him what his thoughts might be on setting up a music exhibit. I could set up a system much like I typically take to a show in one of their exhibit rooms pretty easily. I think it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be from a art appreciation crowd.

I challenge any of the other manufacturers to try something similar and see what the results are.

I know that when I exhibit at small shows in hotels, that are also open to the public, I always get a few people looking in the door that have no idea what is going on, and they know nothing about our industry. I always get a kick out of inviting them in for a listen. Their reactions are always the best because it is a first time experience for them. Talk about astonishment... These people are usually stunned.

Likewise when I was helping Scott Clark and his physics class. Each year they did a project that required small groups to work together to build a pair of speakers. They made the 3 hour drive up to my place for a field trip several times during that semester. They would come in small groups of about ten to twelve kids at a time. After the lesson on how speakers worked and how to design a crossover, they got to listen to whatever I had hooked up in my system at the time. The reaction of those kids was priceless every time. They had never heard sound stage and imaging, or resolution levels that high. It was funny listening to them talk about all the subtle things they heard in the music that they didn't know were there before. I'll never forget one girl in particular that talked about how when the female vocalist began to sing, she could hear the sound that her lips made (slight pop) as she opened her mouth to sing. And not only could the vocals be heard clearly but each breath. I loved listening to the kids talk about that stuff with excitement.

We have got to figure out ways to reach the masses if this industry is to survive.

It may indeed be time to share the music. Or time to "Enjoy the Music".   

I'm really jealous of those kids.

[Russtafarian]

The source of the audio industry's transformation/revival has to be the evolving application of DSP to audio.  Processing power and bandwidth will continue to increase until even the highest-rez, cleanest filtered files are as easy to store, stream, play as today's MP3s.  DSP modeling/correction technology will continue to evolve to where simple transducers hidden in walls, cars, ears, etc. can recreate an emersive life-like musical event.  For us old dudes: love the sound of that Benz cartridge in a VPI table playing back Decca pressings from the early '60s? A DSP plug in will model that playback experience exactly. 

Those who love music will seek it out.  Those who don't care, won't bother.  Same as it ever was... 

Russ

[NIGHTFALL1970]

"Almost by definition dinosaurs never realize they are out of date, obsolete, and no long adaptable."-JLM

JLM,
Maybee us "Dinosaurs" who love good sound quality should just die off and then these kids blasting rap in their cars that you can hear miles away can call themselves "audiophiles".  Maybee the big box stores should just call their crap "high-end audio" and the masses will believe it and then everyone with a "lifestyle" system can call themselves "audiophiles".  Then people will feel better about themselves.

I have no problem with companies making "high end" gear that is affordable to the average person, but lets not call crap "high end" so that we don't feel like "snobs" or "Dinosaurs".

[JLM]

"Almost by definition dinosaurs never realize they are out of date, obsolete, and no long adaptable."-JLM

JLM,
Maybee us "Dinosaurs" who love good sound quality should just die off and then these kids blasting rap in their cars that you can hear miles away can call themselves "audiophiles".  Maybee the big box stores should just call their crap "high-end audio" and the masses will believe it and then everyone with a "lifestyle" system can call themselves "audiophiles".  Then people will feel better about themselves.

I have no problem with companies making "high end" gear that is affordable to the average person, but lets not call crap "high end" so that we don't feel like "snobs" or "Dinosaurs".

Obviously I'm not thinking of watering down or deluding anyone of the concept (which will always be subjectively defined) of high-end audio.  And its not about hurting someone's feelings.  Its about being open minded to possibilities, unlike snobs or dinosaurs and to instill quality sound values in this over stimulated world. 

[dB Cooper]

A point that hasn't been mentioned yet: Source material. A few years back (2009 or 2010) I read that fully one third of the titles released that year were released in a downloadable compressed format only- no CD (or other uncompressed) release at all.

The implications of this should be obvious- if there is no high quality source material, there is no reason for high-quality playback systems to exist. Since so much music today is synthetic, with "virtual" musicians and "virtual" instruments "performing" in "virtual" environments, what is there to have "fidelity" to?

Fortunately, FLAC and other hi quality options seem to be gaining some traction as available bandwidth has increased. But the public at large has too many other diversions. $2000 garden-hose-sized power cables for preamps that draw 15 watts aren't going to bring new devotees in.  Years ago Dynaco probably outsold McIntosh 5 to 1 (if not more) on a unit basis. That was 5 times as many systems being heard by friends, neighbors, and so forth, and potentially leading to enough interest for the listener to consider  their own system. Assuming for purposes of argument that there is a clear, readily audible benefit to the significantly higher cost equipment, which is more likely to spur growth (and interest) in high quality music reproduction: five Dynaco systems or one McIntosh system?

The problem is that today the middle ground in audio, like in society at large, is vanishing. The fact that a very few people with money to burn are willing to spend the cost of a home in the 'burbs in some areas on an audio system does not a healthy industry make. What made Dynaco (for example) successful was value. Even if the McIntosh was "better", was it five times better? I think most people at the time would have said no.

I hate the term "high end" because it sounds like it is about money first and foremost. I much prefer the phrase "high fidelity", as that is what I am after, not "status". The first "real" audio system I heard- at my next door neighbor's- probably cost all of three hundred dollars at the time (early 70's). It consisted of a Dual TT, Shure cart, Nikko integrated (15WPC IIRC), and a couple of AR4x bookshelfs (notice the impression it made that I still remember this stuff?) on padded kitchen chairs for stands.

It made the hair stand up on the back of my neck and made me save my teenager money for a year to buy my own gear (that's right, Dyna.) And here's my long-delayed point: You could walk into the local department store and hear a console system for about the same money that sounded like crap. The difference was value, not that the system was astronomically more expensive. I have heard many very expensive systems over the years that didn't give me the same goosebumps.

Today, the counterpart to the crappy sounding console is the home-theatre-in-a box setup floorstacked at your local Shack or Bestbuy. Like the crappy console of yesteryear, it has fake power ratings (275 watts power consumption yet somehow manages to defy the laws of physics by pumping out 600 watts into all those cheesy plastic speakers- says so right on the box). And the counterpart to my $330 original Dyna system which launched my lifelong interest in the reproduction of music at a young age because I could afford to buy  it? Well, there isn't one, or at least an easily found one, and that, as I see it, is the problem.

[end rant]

[JLM]

Thanks dB, some really good points there.

But as bad as MP3 is, its way better than 8-tracks or pre-recorded cassettes from the early 70's. 

And in the last 50 years most music is synthetic, with 95% of it never heard live and un-amplified. 

Blame the bad math (more wattage out than went in) on our education system that produced those vendors and consumers (that are buying into it). 

Yes the middle class is vanishing, perhaps the biggest threat to all kinds of middle/upper middle of the road consumer products (but keep in mind that many countries put a 100% luxury tax on home electronics). 

I really like your preference for 'high fidelity' vs 'high end'.

If you peruse the Cheap and Cheerful circle (where the ground rules limit systems to $1000) you'll find good $300 systems (in 1973 dollars - about $1600 in today's dollars).  Now there are thousands of options for good sounding systems at $1600 (with or without using your existing computer).  Today's sound quality and features even at budget prices were only imaged in 1973.  Of course just like 40 years ago there are plenty of people that will spend $1600 on a system that sounds terrible but is effectively marketed.  Fools and their money have always easily parted.

[enjoythemusic]

Agree, high-fidelity replacing the term high-end audio is a great idea! Yes source material (music) is key. Without source material what's the point?