Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?

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Wicked Ace

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Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« on: 1 Jun 2013, 02:29 am »
I have a few pairs of 12at7 on hand from other pieces/projects and I'm temped to do some rolling. I was just wondering what is the baseline I'm comparing to.
Had a conversation with Jim McShane when placing an order and he was very complimentary of the Tung Sol reissue. Just sayin'.

Hydro

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Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #1 on: 1 Jun 2013, 05:05 pm »
As stated in the 12at7 thread, I like the Genalex Gold Lion Cryo tubes, Mr Van Alstine couldn't hear any difference between them and stock tubes. Others have heard major differences. Before the Genalex I tried quite a few NOS tubes and the 1960's Mullard grey plate tubes were my favorite. In line stages I like Telefunken.

NIGHTFALL1970

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #2 on: 1 Jun 2013, 07:11 pm »
I use cryoed Gold Lion in my 400R and heard a huge improvement.

Kwebb

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #3 on: 1 Jun 2013, 10:57 pm »
I can confirm Nightfall's findings as well.  The Genalex Gold Lion Cryo 12AT7's are the very best I have heard by far.

Kyle

smwick

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #4 on: 1 Jul 2013, 03:03 am »
Is the 12at7 the same as the 12at7a?  I have an AVA Ultra II 350 amp from two years ago.  It has the 12at7a tubes. Can I use the 12at7 tubes?

mark funk

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #5 on: 1 Jul 2013, 09:41 am »
Yes you can.  :thumb:


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smwick

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #6 on: 2 Jul 2013, 03:38 am »
Yes you can.  :thumb:


                                                                                                                           :smoke:

Thanks.  So is it the same type of tube?  Why is there an "a" at the end of one but not the other? 
« Last Edit: 2 Jul 2013, 03:58 pm by smwick »

Listens2tubes

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #7 on: 16 Jul 2013, 12:37 pm »
The 'a' generally means a higher spec tube.

smwick

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #8 on: 16 Jul 2013, 08:16 pm »
So does that mean the tubes Frank sells are a better choice or cleaner sounding with regards to distortion?

mark funk

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #9 on: 16 Jul 2013, 09:53 pm »
May I ask? What brand of 12AT7a tubes came in your Ultra II amp? I think if they were JJs they would be ECC81? Same type just different number. My Ultra+ 550 came with JJ ECC81s. I have change tubes to Telefunken ECC801s that means the tube life is 10,000 hours or more and I think Telefunken is kinda the pinnacle of tubes?




                                                                                                                           :smoke:

smwick

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #10 on: 16 Jul 2013, 10:44 pm »
Yes they are the ECC81's.  Are the Telefunken tubes 12A7A?

mark funk

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Jul 2013, 09:17 pm »
Here take a look at this. A lot of different types of the same tube!



http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm



                                                                                                                        :smoke:

JerryM

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Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #12 on: 18 Jul 2013, 05:32 am »
So does that mean the tubes Frank sells are a better choice or cleaner sounding with regards to distortion?

The cool thing about the tubes Frank sells is that he tests them *in-circuit*. Here's a clip from his website:

... We take the time to carefully evaluate all vacuum tube types in-circuit for our own use, selecting for low noise, low microphonics, and high gain. Pairs of tubes are further matched for balanced behavior in circuit.

As for Telefunken ECC801s valves, many feel there is not a better 12at7 available.

Have fun,

Jerry

Detuned

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Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #13 on: 18 Jul 2013, 06:22 am »
I'm not familiar with the specific piece of gear but like mark mentioned there's a lot of variants and for myself I found the 6414 a nice sounding and very inexpensive tube..

avahifi

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #14 on: 18 Jul 2013, 02:06 pm »
In general, in an audio amplifying device (amp, preamp, etc.) in which feedback is used (most everything out there) changing the gain of the active device (in this case a vacuum tube) will affect the overall sonic quality of the unit.

When overall loop feedback is used, the open loop gain of the circuit (before feedback is applied) will normally be very high.  The feedback loop reduces the closed loop gain to that desired, and at the same time reduces harmonic distortion.  Unfortunately, if too much feedback is used, this can cause the feedback loop to overload the front end of the circuit.  Too little feedback and harmonic distortion rises.  Too much feedback and transient distortion rises.  Note that in AVA circuits we design to prevent hard feedback overload from occurring.

For example, if the open loop gain was 60dB and your wanted 20dB of closed loop gain, then the feedback loop would be designed to provide 40dB of feedback.  Of course to do this it would be necessary to select active devices in the overall gain stage that did provide at least 60dB of gain.  If the tube had lower gain, there would not be as much feedback possible.  If the tube had higher gain, there would be more feedback than the design wanted.

Different tube types and versions within types have wildly differing amounts of gain.  So changing tubes from what the designer intended without understanding how the gain of the new tube relates to that the designer wanted will change the sound of the unit in a random fashion, and not necessarily for the better.

A low gain tube will increase harmonic distortion.  A bit of this makes the unit sound warm and mellow.  Too low a gain tube and the sound will just get muddy and veiled. A "hot" tube with higher gain than normal make make the unit sound clearer and more "detailed" but the trade-off can be too bright and maybe even a grainy sounding high end as transient related distortion rears its head.

A good example of where a vacuum tube just will not work properly is attempting to use a single dual triode 12AX7 tube for a feedback RIAA phono circuit.  To follow the specified RIAA equalization curve, the circuit must provide a range of 40dB of closed loop gain between treble and bass output.  Bass is boosted 40dB in relation to treble to provide a flat output response and you need another 20dB of overall output to provide a sufficient signal level out.  Unfortunately, a 12AX7 tube (the highest gain tube available) has at best 60dB of open loop gain.  Thus, no matter what the parts quality of the circuit design, the phono stage will run out of open loop gain at low frequencies, and the circuit will not be able to follow the closed loop feedback demands accurately at all.  Distortion at low frequencies will be high and there is nothing the designer can do about this except try again with a different kind of circuit design.

So the story is that in tube rolling, it would be useful to determine the gain of the new tube you are trying in relation to the gain of the existing tube.  If the gain is different than the original, your joy at finding a "better sounding tube" may just be your impression of hearing an increase in distortion. If the gains are matched, then well, audio voodoo still abounds, we certainly don't know it all.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine


aln

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Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jul 2013, 03:03 pm »
A great explanation.  Thanks!  Do you have anything in the works for the fall?

Al

smwick

Re: Which brand 'AT7 in a 400r?
« Reply #16 on: 18 Jul 2013, 04:39 pm »
Thank you Frank and everyone for your input on this.  Much appreciated.