Follow Up Question, and Anyone Using Decware Amps with Omega's/Hoyt-Bedfords?

Slapshot · « **on:** 26 Apr 2013, 04:11 am »

Greetings all,

A year ago, I had previously posted here in search of some information and with a serious interest in Omega speakers for my nearfield system having been given some stellar recommendations when used as nearfield speakers. At the time, I was all ready to make a move to upgrade my listening experience, when, as can sometimes happened, a series of life events changed everything for a time. While still recovering from some of those setbacks, I am at least ready to re-open my audio upgrade plans. And, if anything, find myself even more in need and appreciation of the miracle of music, and it's reproduction, on a nightly basis.

Let me offer some background here to help explain the demands of my situation. My current system is situationally relegated to a 10x10 room. Due to some factors present in that room, the speakers can only be located 5-5.5 feet apart (dependent on size) with my listening position at the point of the triangle, about 5.5-6 feet away. My preamp is the truly superb ModWright LS 100, the new amplifier to match with it, is about to be determined. I am leaning heavily towards either a Decware Torii Mk III, or even, given the efficiency of the Omega/Hoyt-Bedford models, the Rachael Zen Triode (or a pair as mono's).

I listen to a wide variety of music, everything from acoustic stuff, to singer songwriters, female vocals, ambient, jazz, rock, prog rock, and even Gregorian chants, now and then, late at night. And, on occasion, I really do want to rock!

When I last enquired here, the always helpful Canada Rob replied to my enquiry, with:

Quote

" I would seriously consider the Hoyt-Bedford Type 1. They can be run sealed or ported, are 97db efficient and will really sing on a couple of watts. I run a pair with a 2 watt Decware amp and the results are stunning."

Louis was also kind enough to comment that, for my situation, the Type 1's would be great.

Having reviewed the current offerings, the Hoyt-Bedford 1.5 looks ideal, as I want a lot of sound in my small space. I borrowed my friends Harbeth 40.1's for a week, while he was on vacation and came to truly appreciate what a big soundstage, and remarkable sound can be had within my confined space. But those are far beyond my budget, and also require a big amp to be driven properly. I have my heart set on going back to SET for the magic they can offer, and, with the Decwares, real, significant, bass. At least based on what I have read in reviews and owner commentaries. I think the Hoyt-Bedfords might well be the final touch to this solution.

Given all of the above, am I on the right track with the Hoyt-Bedford 1.5's?

JC

sugbob21 · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Apr 2013, 11:23 am »

FWIW....i have the super 6 alnico monitors in a 13 x 15 room about 6 feet apart. i had a Decware Mini Torii which regrettably i had to sell. It sounded great and had more than enough power to rock the room or was dynamic enough at low levels for late night. I am even toying with getting the Zen Triode again when finances permit. Louis makes great speakers, i enjoy my Alnico"s even over apair of Harbeth PS3's i have .

Hank Murrow · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Apr 2013, 01:49 pm »

I have had extensive experience listening to Louis' Super 5's with a Bottlehead Customs 2A3 amp, and can report that they produce huge volumes and lovely sound stage in a largish LR on all sorts of music with their 3.5 single-ended watts. Since the Super 5's are less sensitive than the Hoyt Bedford 1.5's, I imagine your set-up would be stunning with the speakers you have chosen. While my amp was custom built for me with boutique parts, I have heard their standard 2A3 Stereomour amp, which is only available in kit form, and can tell you that the bass rendition with their parallel-feed topology will be stunning with the HB 1.5's You can check out the Stereomour kit here:

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php/products/stereomour-stereo-single-ended-2a345-integrated-amplifier-kit

Amazing value, an easy build, and if you make a mistake the BH Forum has dozens of helpful builders who will respond with detailed suggestions on remedies for your problem. they also quickly send out replacement parts if you damage something during the build. Cannot recommend them highly enough. No one does it better!

Cheers, Hank

nature boy · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Apr 2013, 02:04 pm »

I called Louis prior to a purchase of Omega's with the 8" alnico speakers and he provided sound advice. I have a Decware SE84CS EX (1.5 watts/channel) and Eastern Electric MiniMax driving these speakers in a 13.5' x 15.5' room. This combination drives the speakers extremely well.

Your spacing should provide acceptable separation for creating a realistic and enveloping soundstage, but given your room dimensions, room treatments may be advisable. Give Louis a call, he knows his speakers best.

NB

Canada Rob · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Apr 2013, 05:58 pm »

Hello Slapshot,
I am not sure when I advised you of the Decware/Hoyt combo, but both the Hoyt-Bedford line and the Omega 4.5" driver line have seen driver changes, changing the game somewhat. The new RS5 driver in the 4.5" series (known as the Super 3 series) are a dramatic improvement over the already excellent hemp cones they replace. The new driver is also more efficient, making 2 watts no longer borderline. The Super 3XRS compact floor tower is proving to be an unbelievably good speaker on my 2w Decware Super Zen with V-Caps and stepped attenuator, 5w Glow Amp One v1.3, and the 20w Ideal Innovations Elite 80. These speakers image like few speakers I have heard with a huge 3D soundstage, have incredible inner detail, are super fast, and in my big listening room have "no sub needed" tight tuneful bass. The midrange has a presence that is utterly spooky, like you are no longer listening to reproduced music, but you are there with no stereo in between.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Apr 2013, 06:45 pm »

Slapshot, I think you are on the right track, the Decware stuff looks really nice. One thing I'd keep in mind is that you might have too much gain with a preamp as most of the Decware amps don't require them. I don't think a good tube preamp is going to negatively effect sound quality, but too much gain isn't great... if your pre has 12 dB or less gain I wouldn't worry about it, but if you have a 20+ dB preamp it's an issue.

I don't think you can go wrong with the choices you are considering though.

Slapshot · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Apr 2013, 06:01 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 26 Apr 2013, 06:45 pm

Slapshot, I think you are on the right track, the Decware stuff looks really nice. One thing I'd keep in mind is that you might have too much gain with a preamp as most of the Decware amps don't require them. I don't think a good tube preamp is going to negatively effect sound quality, but too much gain isn't great... if your pre has 12 dB or less gain I wouldn't worry about it, but if you have a 20+ dB preamp it's an issue.

I don't think you can go wrong with the choices you are considering though.

Gain on the LS 100 is 11 db, so I should be fine then. Thanks for the point check.

JC

Slapshot · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Apr 2013, 06:05 pm »

Rob,

You provided your comments to me in March of last year, which I suspect was before the driver upgrades you've mentioned. Thanks again for your newest information. Your description of the Super 3 XRS does indeed have me very interested. Any comments on that versus the Hoyt-Bedford 1.5 for my specific situation? I note the Super 3 XRS is 3 db less efficient, which may or may not be an issue. Your comments would indicate not, especially if I went with using two of the rachael Zen Triodes as monoblocks.

JC

Quote from: Canada Rob on 26 Apr 2013, 05:58 pm

Hello Slapshot,
I am not sure when I advised you of the Decware/Hoyt combo, but both the Hoyt-Bedford line and the Omega 4.5" driver line have seen driver changes, changing the game somewhat. The new RS5 driver in the 4.5" series (known as the Super 3 series) are a dramatic improvement over the already excellent hemp cones they replace. The new driver is also more efficient, making 2 watts no longer borderline. The Super 3XRS compact floor tower is proving to be an unbelievably good speaker on my 2w Decware Super Zen with V-Caps and stepped attenuator, 5w Glow Amp One v1.3, and the 20w Ideal Innovations Elite 80. These speakers image like few speakers I have heard with a huge 3D soundstage, have incredible inner detail, are super fast, and in my big listening room have "no sub needed" tight tuneful bass. The midrange has a presence that is utterly spooky, like you are no longer listening to reproduced music, but you are there with no stereo in between.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Apr 2013, 06:47 pm »

Slapshot,
In your 10 x 10 room the SE84 in any of it's configurations would easily do the job. My system is in a 13 x 25 room with 9' ceiling with the system firing across one end of the room. I listen with no pre amp and don't recommend one (my DAC has standard 2 volt output), unless your room has crooked acoustics (new audio term just invented) where you have a misbalanced soundstage and need a balance control, in which case I would go with the Elite 80 or Decware Rachel with separate volume controls for left and right.

sugbob21 · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 Apr 2013, 07:18 pm »

I am currently using a Millenia integrated with my Omega Alnicos 6's. It sounds pretty good but as I mentioned I would love to get my hands on another Decware. You had also mentioned Glow Audio. How does that sound with Omegas ? I also have a Prima Luna Prologue which I use on and off and that also sounds nice. would Glow ,Decware be a significant upgrade ?

DaveC113 · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 Apr 2013, 07:37 pm »

I tried out the TBI Mellenia that was on tour and I'm not sure a standard Decware is going to be a huge upgrade, but will rather have more of a give and take. First, it's hard to beat the TBI's bass, it's fast and accurate and I'm not sure any amp is going to do significantly better. My SET was significantly better wrt mid to high frequency accuracy and detail, and the soundstage is more 3D and has more separation. Ultimately, my SET was just more accurate and involving vs the TBI.

The catch is my SET is simply 2 EL34s run w/o feedback in triode mode and uses very high end parts. It is driven by a 6SN7 Aikido that also uses very high end parts... My amp and preamp together cost over $2k just in parts so it's not a great comparison to what you'd get with say the $1300 Decware EL34 integrated amp.

While I haven't tested tons of different amps I would guess you're going to need a SET built with really nice parts and OPTs to have something clearly better than the TBI, and such an amp would probably cost around $3k+ retail and I don't even know of a company to call for an amp like that... maybe a custom Electraprint or a customized Decware, if they'll make an upgraded version for you.

I also tried out the TBI with my Aikido and liked it a lot better with a tube preamp. The TBI has a lot of gain, so adding something like a zero gain tube buffer with a nice attenuator may be a good option to look into unless your budget is more or less unlimited... then you could also consider high powered SET options, something that uses a GM70 or similar output tube...

Canada Rob · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 01:26 am »

Quote from: sugbob21 on 27 Apr 2013, 07:18 pm

I am currently using a Millenia integrated with my Omega Alnicos 6's. It sounds pretty good but as I mentioned I would love to get my hands on another Decware. You had also mentioned Glow Audio. How does that sound with Omegas ? I also have a Prima Luna Prologue which I use on and off and that also sounds nice. would Glow ,Decware be a significant upgrade ?

The Glow Audio Amp One in my opinion gives my Super Zen a run for it's money for a bit more than half the price. On the desktop with the Super 3T Desktop speakers I prefer the Glow (more punch in the bottom end and more detail), but with the Super 3XRS in a room system It could go either way. The Decware is so ethereal in it's presentation and that draws me to it, but the Glow has more than twice the power, and it shows in punch and dynamics.

As I mentioned before, The Glow, Elite 80, or the Decware will work beautifully with any Omega or Hoyt-Bedford speaker, and all these amps have an excellent track record.

Also, you will have to spend a lot more than the paltry price of the Glow to get a solid state amp that would beat it.

meraklya · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 01:28 am »

Slapshot,

I have a Decware SE84ZS and my Omega Super 3 XRS just arrived yesterday. Obviously I haven't had a chance to give this combo a good listen, but I can confirm that the soundstage is huge, fills my small room wall to wall. It's the "you are there" kind of sound. I will post additional impressions soon but based on mere 5hrs of listening I'd say you can't go wrong.

fdiaz · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 03:05 am »

Any of the Decware amplifiers sound superb with any of the Omega/Hoyt-Bedford models.

In a 10' x 10' room such as you describe, I would only caution that the bass response could be problematic with the Type 1.5 in such a small room, especially considering that the room has two equal dimensions.

At the very least, treat your room with bass traps in all four corners. It will be the best audio investment you will ever make, and you can reinstall your acoustic treatment if you ever move to a larger listening space.

Acoustimac makes very affordable, albeit very effective, corner bass traps and absorptive panels. More money will buy you ASC Tube Traps and panels.

A well treated room will give you the full degree of the breathtaking soundstaging and micro-dynamics that Omega/Hoyt-Bedfords are capable of conveying.

Canada Rob and I both are Decware/Omega/Hoyt-Bedford dealers for a reason: these combinations make reproduced music sound alive and organic.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 04:11 am »

Quote from: fdiaz on 28 Apr 2013, 03:05 am

In a 10' x 10' room such as you describe, I would only caution that the bass response could be problematic with the Type 1.5 in such a small room, especially considering that the room has two equal dimensions.

Good point, small rooms are difficult... I agree room treatments will help (necessary imo). I'd also recommend trying out asymmetrical speaker placements, both offsetting the centerline between the speakers to one side as well as rotating the entire setup if it's possible.

Unfortunately, a small room doesn't sound good if the acoustics are too live (as opposed to deadened), so I'd also lean toward using a decent amount of absorptive room treatments.

The small room size might sway me toward the Super 3 XRS in a nearfield (~6ft) listening position vs the HB, mostly because I'm assuming the 4.5" driver has more controlled dispersion vs the HB's 8" w/ whizzer. Please correct me guys if I'm wrong about that. I have the 3XRS speaker and toe them in so they face the listening position and have been happy with it in a smaller than ideal space before... luckily I now have a larger space w/ ~14' ceilings.

Slapshot · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 04:57 am »

Once again, thanks to everyone for the continued information and perspective. This is all extremely helpful. Concerning my room, it is definitely not too live. The entire back wall is covered by shelves and books. The wall behind the speaker positions is filled with shelves of additional books and records. There is little to no available room for treatments, but I've already had several quality speakers on loan from friends, that were able to perform very well in the room as it sits now. Those included Harbeth 40.1's, so I would think the room is not very much of an issue acoustically.

JC

JLM · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 11:35 am »

Quote from: Canada Rob on 28 Apr 2013, 01:26 am

The Glow Audio Amp One in my opinion gives my Super Zen a run for it's money for a bit more than half the price. On the desktop with the Super 3T Desktop speakers I prefer the Glow (more punch in the bottom end and more detail), but with the Super 3XRS in a room system It could go either way. The Decware is so ethereal in it's presentation and that draws me to it, but the Glow has more than twice the power, and it shows in punch and dynamics.

As I mentioned before, The Glow, Elite 80, or the Decware will work beautifully with any Omega or Hoyt-Bedford speaker, and all these amps have an excellent track record.

Also, you will have to spend a lot more than the paltry price of the Glow to get a solid state amp that would beat it.

I tried to be a "Dec Head" for a few years but finally gave up. I liked the simple, American built, small design but the lack of wattage finally killed the deal for me (I'm a firm believer in having sufficient headroom/grip on the speakers even though I'm an old/mellow fart listener). That was before the current "huge" Decware amp (that scares me with complexity and price). Deckert's propensity to continually tweak bugs me to (would rather live with an obsolete piece that was fully matured before release than live with the tease of constant upgrades). The nail in the coffin for me was having bad luck with every tube amp I touched, including trialing a Decware at home. With sufficient juice they did sound glorious.

BTW, from my experience at the first two DecFests I realized that Deckert is definitely not a basehead (he had a huge pair of Imperial bass boxes that he kept turning down) and of course with only a couple of watts available any bass really sucks power (output/dynamics/driver control) out of the rest of the frequency spectrum.

doorman · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 02:43 pm »

Not sure why the "complexity" of Decware's biggest amp should scare anyone. They do come with a lifetime guarantee.
FWIW I've owned several Decware amps that have been wonderful performers, at prices that are comparable
with many offerings.
It's true the lower powered models must be very carefully matched with the rest of the chain. This of course applies to most amps of a similar type, though.
Happy Hunting!
Don

sugbob21 · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 03:52 pm »

Hi slaps hot...when I had my Mini Torii I preferred no preamp in the way. I tried a few , even had a zstage (Decware) in front but preferred just the amp. As I mentioned ...I wish I still had it.

sugbob21 · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Apr 2013, 03:57 pm »

BTW,,,,,DaveC113....could u recommend a "budget" tube preamp that would match the Millenia integrated .
Would Decware preamp work ? It looks nice and is a headphone amp to boot. I need the 2 inputs also , the Millenia only has the 1 input. Thx.