[joster]

Hi,

I have just setup a computer-based music (mainly) playback system with the following components:

- New PC (specs at http://aleutia.com/relia-fanless-industrial-server) with Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bits) and last version (18.0.158) of JRiver Media Center. No other software installed (Operating system was updated after the installation);

- Dangerous Source (http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products/source) as the outboard DAC (attached via USB 3.0);

- CEntrance Universal Driver (version 7.4.2) for ASIO support (http://centrance.com/downloads/ud/) (note: I have used the Dangerous Source supplied driver, which I believe is exactly the same one from CEntrance);

I have followed the Dangerous Source installation guidelines and all software was installed without any issues.

The problem is that when I configure JRiver Media Center to use the ASIO interface, or even WASAPI, I get some loud hiccups during playback. The only way to have a "smooth" playback is using the Direct Sound interface (meaning the signal goes through the system mixer).

Now, I wonder what's going wrong here? What settings should I apply?

The written information on how to setup correctly the Dangerous Source is very scarce. Even the feedback received from Dangerous Music is not being very helpful. It seems everything should be plug-and-play and I shouldn't have problems! (no "check this, disable that, change those options", etc.).

After searching for a solution on the internet, I came to believe my problem could be related to a latency issue. So I run the DPC Latency Checker and also LatencyMon to check any latency problems.

According to DPC Latency Checker output everything is okay. All green (good) bars with the highest value being 556 microseconds (µs) (= 0.556 milliseconds) and the following message:

"The machine should be able to handle real-time streaming of audio and/or video data without drop-outs.".

With LatencyMon output I could see the latency values per driver with the 10 highest values from the following drivers:

Code: [Select]

ndis.sys      0.547994
USBPORT.SYS      0.267362
ntoskml.exe      0.116970
ataport.SYS      0.084079
dpdat_driver.sys   0.067691
dxgkml.sys      0.064158
netbt.sys      0.052829
tcpip.sys      0.040058
HECIx64.sys      0.023862
ACPI.sys      0.023545
Now, even if individually any of this values could not mean a problem, the total latency (1,288548 ms) of these 10 drivers can be. (Including the remain drivers the total latency value in ms is 1,552280).

Now, is the latency the reason of the hiccups I am hearing? Is the solution just to disable some of those drivers? Which ones are safe to disable. Should I just increase buffer value (MC or/and CEntrance control panel)?

Any guidance would be grateful.

Thank you (and sorry for the long post).
Joster

P.S.: I have just updated most of the drivers and now the latency values are even more irrelevant (total value around 226 microseconds). I have been "tweaking" some of the settings as per JRiver support suggestions, like increasing/decreasing the buffer, "Use large hardware buffers" option on and as per Dangerous Source maker suggestions, like re-installing the driver (did it twice) and attaching DAC to a different USB port (now attached to a USB 2.0 port). None of those changes solved the hiccups problem.

P.S. 2: I have just read. According to the words of Steve Nugent from Empirical Audio it is not advisable (to say the least) to use any other USB device ("If you are using USB for audio streaming, do not attach ANY other USB devices to the computer, even a mouse and particularly not USB disks."). Is there any work-around for this issue? I mean, I need to connect a keyboard to the PC and the only way of doing it is through a USB port.

[Vincent Kars]

Is there any work-around for this issue?

Yes, don’t believe anything they say on the internet.

A very simple test: disconnect the keyboard.
If this does not help, you can leave it connected.

A bit more technical
Open the device manger and choose “Devices by connection”
Expand all the USB controllers until you find the DAC
Check if it shares the hub with the other devices.


The latency looks fine but maybe there is a process like a Anti Virus polling the internet occasionally.
Try the Windows Resource Monitor and check if you see a spike

WASAPI is very sensitive to buffersize
Maybe WASAPI – Exclusive?
 
Success

[joster]

Hi Vincent,

Thank you for the feedback.

Yes, don’t believe anything they say on the internet.

I tend to be as skeptic as possible about a lot of things I read online. The problem is that this "computer-based music playback thing" is making me sick, and after so many unsuccessful prescriptions sometimes one in leaning to believe is some miraculous formula!
 

Expand all the USB controllers until you find the DAC
Check if it shares the hub with the other devices.

The outboard DAC is the only device sharing the USB 3.0 hub (please do check screenshot as my conclusions maybe incorrect).

Try the Windows Resource Monitor and check if you see a spike

My Windows Resource Monitor screenshot:

WASAPI is very sensitive to buffersize
Maybe WASAPI – Exclusive?

Vincent, is it possible to have a different playback output (that is no glitches/hiccups) with a different player? I have just played the same track with AIMP3 and this time no glitches/hiccups (when playing that track with JRiver MC I get those loud glitches/hiccups).

AIMP player can play via DirectSound, ASIO and WASAPI (default interface, and the one in use). With JRiver Media Center both WASAPI options did not work.
 


Now, is it possible to "route" JRiver Media Center to use na external player? I mean using all the good features for managing a music collection and have, for instance, AIMP playing the music?

Best regards,
Joster

P.S.: Although my skepticism I do enjoy (and find it very instructive) your WellTemperedComputer website. Congratulations for it.

[joster]

Hi,

The AIMP3 player seems to works fine with "WASAPI: Windows Default" only. Last night I changed this option to "WASAPI: CEntrance USB Audio" and "ASIO: CEntrance USB Audio" and both these options resulted in loud glitches, clicks, hiccups!

It seems the problem is the "dialogue" between the ASIO and WASAPI and the Dangerous Source. That is, the playback with "WASAPI: Windows Default" is okay, with "WASAPI: CEntrance USB Audio" is not okay!

Can it be a problem with ASIO driver?

What ever it is, I am getting a bit desperate here. I mean, I have invested quite a lot (financially and emotionally) on a system... that is not working! I am feeling I choose the wrong route! (The dealer I bought the Dangerous Source from praised it to be undoubtedly superior than the Lavry and Benchmark offers (the other options I was considering)! Or, maybe the dealer's mark-up was undoubtedly superior on the Source. Anyway, that is history).

The convenience of a computer-based music playback system is evident and (quite) irresistible but, clearly, it is not plug-and-play (no matter what the marketing says)!

Unfortunately, only now I found it. I tried to make the system as simple and single-purpose as possible: one new PC with more the standard requirements, a fresh Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bits) installation with all the drivers' updated, CEntrance USB driver installed and single program to running (JRiver Media Center). What additional steps should I take? What settings, drivers I must disable/enable, configure, tweak?

Maybe I should forget these computer-based music playback thing and just revert to the old and trusty hi-fi stereo system: "insert the CD and press the Play button"! (sound-wise I am not loosing anything here).

Anyone willing to buy a "brand new" outboard DAC?!

Best regards,
Joster

[davidldl]

I was setting up my foobar2000 with wasapi, it used an old teralink usb to spdif converter.

I was getting pops and the music would that would interrupt the music (I wasn't getting any sound output after the pop, the player looked like it continued playing but there was no sound output.).   I changed to a cmedia driver that I found the pops were still there but it the playing would continue after the pop.   

I then muted the microphone and the trouble went away.  Have you tried muting the microphone?

--DL.

[joster]

I was setting up my foobar2000 with wasapi, it used an old teralink usb to spdif converter.

I was getting pops and the music would that would interrupt the music (I wasn't getting any sound output after the pop, the player looked like it continued playing but there was no sound output.).   I changed to a cmedia driver that I found the pops were still there but it the playing would continue after the pop.   

I then muted the microphone and the trouble went away.  Have you tried muting the microphone?

--DL.

Hi David,

Which C-Media driver to use? Dangerous Source is able to play 24-bit/192 kHz files and has a XMOS USB Receiver.

I will mute the microphone.

Thank you for the suggestions.

[joster]

I thank you all for the postings.

The things are not working (at least for me). Other than the relative success of having AIMP working with "WASAPI: Windows Default", so far I could not manage to have the Dangerous Source working with the provided ASIO driver.

Actually, the things are getting worse! Now, I can hear a low and continuous noise from the tweeters' speakers (both). A kind of buzzing sound. This hum/buzz problem is a very recent one which I hadn't with the my "traditional" hi-fi system (CD player + amplifier + loudspeakers).

I have remove the recently add new gear - PC and Dangerous Source, including all their cables - and with only the amplifier and the speakers connects that buzzing sound is still there.

Is it possible that those loud pops and clicks could have damage the tweeters? According to some sources tweeters can be damaged by amplifier clipping!

This computer-based music playback turn out to be a hell of a experience (for me). I think I will revert to my old and trusty hi-fi system (and cross my fingers my loudspeakers are not damage).

Regards,
Joster

[charmerci]

I have a laptop with Home Premium Windows 7 and JRiver. I just plugged it into my ODAC right into my Denon receiver and have had no problems.

[joster]

I have a laptop with Home Premium Windows 7 and JRiver. I just plugged it into my ODAC right into my Denon receiver and have had no problems.

Hi charmerci,

Maybe your DAC  is better, more problem-proof than mine.

As I wrote, all my troubles with this computer-based system has something to do with my gear, my setup, my settings, my bad luck. I understand that some level "tweaking" was necessary, but not to this extend. Although it has been a very frustrating and expensive experience, I don't blame the all world because of it.

I believe the ultimate goal of any music playback system is the enjoyment of the music. That's why I am reverting to the traditional system, where I have a bit-perfect, high quality sound, and can concentrate on the music only.

Nevertheless, on the process I have learned a lot about real-time audio on a computer. You see, by now I convinced that my problem has something to do with IRQ sharing issues (main suspect) and, to a lower level, some USB issues, more than any software/drivers problems.

Side note: on a Windows 7 you cannot manually assign an IRQ even if it is available. Unless if start to mess with BIOS and/or move PCI cards. When you have to reach this level tweakness, one cannot say computer-based music playback is not plug and play, yet.

Regards,
Joster

[charmerci]

Too bad. 

I really enjoy just hitting shuffle and letting my music play for hours without doing anything. 

[joster]

2nd round... to have my computer-based music playback to work properly.

After reading this:

Is your M-Audio USB interface connected to a USB port on your keyboard, monitor, or to a multi-port USB hub?  If so, this could be the source of your problem.  Connect the device directly to the computer and test the audio quality.  If the problem persists, continue testing all USB ports.

I came to believe that this is the source of all my problems (pops and clicks during playback).

I did test it with my computer and I realized no matter what USB port I use for any device (pen, DVD driver, keyboard, outboard DAC) they all fall under the control of the same USB host controller - although I have three main entries as per the Device Manager.

Now, is there a way to force a device, say the outboard DAC, to be controlled by a specific USB host controller?

The idea is to have the outboard DAC only in one USB controller and all the other devices on a different one.

Regards,
Joster