Gonna' get some Maggies - small room

Johnaki · « **on:** 28 Mar 2013, 02:48 pm »

Hi All,

I've posted some of this on other circles, but I thought it would be to my advantage to get your take on tube amps for Maggies in a small room.

I've read some of threads on tubes for Maggies and it seems the threads have a lot of discussion on tubes versus SS. I'm not interested in the "vs" part of the discussion as I've already decided I want to try tubes. If I don't like the tubes I'll simply switch back to SS.

Soon, within a month or so, I will have my first ever dedicated listening room. I've been in to stereo for about 20 yrs., have a music degree and know the sound I'm looking for. However, I have no technical knowledge what so ever. I'm looking for resolution, detail and separation. I listen to all types of music. The majority of time I listen to classical and accoustic folk. I rarely listen at higher than moderately loud levels and usually not that loud. I like laid back.

My room is 9 x 11.5. It will be a dedicated music room with no other purpose. It will be a blank space that I will fill with music.

I like simplicity, so I would like an integrated tube amp. I'm planning on either MMG's, MC-1's, or MG12's paired with the new DVM. I'd like to stay around $1,500-$2,000 for the amp, but if that's impossible, I'll have the means to go higher.

I know the size of the room makes this a challenge. I plan on some room treatment also.

Any suggestions concerning brands, models an what specs to look for will be greatly appreciated.

medium jim · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 03:00 pm »

Tubes seem to be a little bit sweeter, have a bigger and more involving soundstage. There is more weight to the music with tubes and you don't need a zillion watts to flesh out detail. I might give an edge to SS for bass management/control, but only a slight edge. These are from my 1st hand experiences.

Jim

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 04:35 pm »

I have the 1.6's and MMG's. I run them both with tube Preamps and tube DAC's and SS amps. With my MMG's I use a Grant Fidelity hybrid tube preamp/dac with a vintage 1960's Holland made Amperex 6DJ8 tube which gives it a nice, lush, midrange and a very transparent sound and wide sound stage. I have it paired with a Classs D Audio CDA-254 amp. This combo gives me deep tight controlled bass and good detail. You should consider going this route or the Peach Tree Nova integrated which is a hybrid tube preamp/DAC/Digital integrated amp. Read this post-
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115197.0

As for tube integrated amps-

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PTNOVA125

Here is the GF and Class D Audio amp-

http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Grant-Fidelity-TubeDAC-11-D-A-Converter.html

http://classdaudio.com/

medium jim · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 05:02 pm »

Tube pre's are wonderful, but you don't get the same sweetness, soundstage without the benefit of tubes in the amplification stage. The more tubes the more engaging and envolving the presentation is going to be. In effect, with only a tube preamp (notwithstsnding the other tube gear in a system), you are asking the tube pre to cure the SS or class D dryness. However, some prefer the analytical nature of SS or class D.

Jim

Mr. Orange · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 05:39 pm »

I would highly recommend the Cary SLI80 integrated amp. I ran one with my Magnestand MG12 and the sound was really nice. I too have a small room and listen to mainly classical with a large portion of that being organ. There are a couple on Audiogon right now. One is in your budget and the other an F1 is a little over. If you were to go for the standard Signature model that is for sale and decided you liked it you could always send it back to Cary for the F1 upgrades.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 05:44 pm »

Quote from: medium jim on 28 Mar 2013, 05:02 pm

Tube pre's are wonderful, but you don't get the same sweetness, soundstage without the benefit of tubes in the amplification stage. The more tubes the more engaging and envolving the presentation is going to be. In effect, with only a tube preamp (notwithstsnding the other tube gear in a system), you are asking the tube pre to cure the SS or class D dryness. However, some prefer the analytical nature of SS or class D.

Jim

I agree with you to some extent. But I can tell you that there is no dryness with my 1.6's and my Van Alstine hybrid tube preamp and VA hybrid tube DAC paired with my Parasound A21 amp. The sound is warm, musical and detailed with excellent pace and rhythm. As for the Grant Fidelity and my Digital amp, rolling in the vintage Amperex tube, gave it a very tubey sound with not a hint of grain, glare or analytical sound. The sound is smooth, warm, musical with depth and transparency with the MMG's. The Grant unit with the stock 6922 tube was as you say, a little dry and analytical sounding.

medium jim · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: I.Greyhound Fan on 28 Mar 2013, 05:44 pm

I agree with you to some extent. But I can tell you that there is no dryness with my 1.6's and my Van Alstine hybrid tube preamp and VA hybrid tube DAC paired with my Parasound A21 amp. The sound is warm, musical and detailed with excellent pace and rhythm. As for the Grant Fidelity and my Digital amp, rolling in the vintage Amperex tube, gave it a very tubey sound with not a hint of grain, glare or analytical sound. The sound is smooth, warm, musical with depth and transparency with the MMG's. The Grant unit with the stock 6922 tube was as you say, a little dry and analytical sounding.

Glad that you like your system. Have you tried a tube amp? My experience is that the driver tubes in the amplification stage is where the soundstage really begins and where it has the most impact on the final presentation. SS and class D are not as liquid, ergo, dry, in this area. Again, this is my experience and opinion. This is not a slam or negative on SS or class D, just explaining the differences I perceive and to answer the OP's question as to the differences between the species of amplification. He didn't ask for specific recommendations for amplification.

Jim

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 06:06 pm »

Quote from: medium jim on 28 Mar 2013, 05:52 pm

Glad that you like your system. Have you tried a tube amp?

Jim

I have taken home a Van Alstine 600R hybrid tube amp to review and have also heard the Van Alstine Ulravalve tube amp compared to his SS and hybrid gear. I have also heard tube amps with Maggies at Audio Perfection here in Minneapolis. While I am not disputing your point of view as I agree with it for the most part, but you can't make a blanket statement like that. In fact, the new Van Alstine Synergy solid state amps have a tube sound and were designed to sound that way.

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=250&Itemid=235

Johnaki · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 06:19 pm »

Thanks all,

Until I get a chance to do listening, I'm leaning toward all tubes. I'd like to be able to really hear the difference between what I'm used to and the tubes.

Besides, I like the looks of the glowing tubes in the dark.

John

Mr. Orange · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Mar 2013, 01:32 am »

Quote from: Johnaki on 28 Mar 2013, 06:19 pm

Besides, I like the looks of the glowing tubes in the dark.

John

Johnaki · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 02:01 am »

Thanks to all who have replied. I've learned a lot here. I've also read a hundred or so articles and reviews that posts have led me to.

I'm beggining to think I may enjoy getting an amp first and then trying out different speakers second. The amp that peaks my interest right now is the PrimaLuna Dialogue. I can get both the KT88 and the EL34 tubes and change them out and find what I like. I can also switch from UltraLinear and to Triode. I know this amp is a few hundred over my suggested budget, however, I bet I'm not the first person going into tubes that ended up over budget.

At any rate, thanks for all the good advice.

John

medium jim · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 02:28 am »

Quote from: Johnaki on 30 Mar 2013, 02:01 am

Thanks to all who have replied. I've learned a lot here. I've also read a hundred or so articles and reviews that posts have led me to.

I'm beggining to think I may enjoy getting an amp first and then trying out different speakers second. The amp that peaks my interest right now is the PrimaLuna Dialogue. I can get both the KT88 and the EL34 tubes and change them out and find what I like. I can also switch from UltraLinear and to Triode. I know this amp is a few hundred over my suggested budget, however, I bet I'm not the first person going into tubes that ended up over budget.

At any rate, thanks for all the good advice.

John

Are you getting it directly from Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio?

Jim

geowak · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 02:54 am »

I know that some here have ARC and Cary and other well known and respected brands. I think they make great stuff but I chose the Line Magnetic Audio 216IA. I actually listened to the ARC and the Cary, both were at a higher price point. I was looking at the ARC Vsi60 and the Cary SL-80. Neither of these amps sounded as good as the LM Audio. The Cary was rough and unrefined, but did not lack power at all!. The ARC was close to the LM Audio but much higher in price and I did not like the remote.

I also listened to the Primaluna and the Rogue integrated amps. I ruled out the Rogue Audio for the same reasons as the Cary and the audio store where I heard the Primaluna stopped carrying the brand when I went back to listen to it a second time.

So far I have been very happy with the Line Magnetic Audio amp. You can see my review(s) here if you want to read it and other people's comments.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104440.msg1073535#msg1073535
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=430570

Much of the decision will depend on your budget. If you get something used, make sure you have a very good agreement with the seller with a complete understanding of each persons responsibility with regard to the conditions of the sale and of the packing of the amp!

Good luck I am sure you will get some great suggestions here. I am always amazed about all the accumulative knowledge that can be found here on AC and other audio websites.

medium jim · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 03:09 am »

I'm pleased with my ARC VS110 that I purchased used. Anticipate retubing any used amp to be in the safe side. That said, buying used can get you a lot more amp. Add VTL to the list of tube amps that mate well with Magnepan's.

Jim

geowak · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 03:25 am »

BTW
I am a big fan of ARC and McIntosh stuff. Love the USA built stuff like CJ, JRDG, LAMM. Boulder, BAT, Ayre. I just bought a DAC made by Schiit Audio that I love. Just for me, they are not making stuff that matches my budget.

medium jim · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 03:42 am »

I also like stuff Made in USA! Add Frank Van Alstine (AVA) to the list.

Jim

JBrahms · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 04:15 am »

Cary amps will give you what you're looking for. The ability to switch triode and ultra linear means lots of future flexibility when you change speakers. The triode mode, though not SET, is exquisite on the kt88 amps.

Take a long look at the two integrateds on audiogon. I drove my MMGs with a similar Cary for a while. Like you, I'm a musician and this was a great combination in my larger room. As I noted in the other thread, I think MMGs are not great for your room without a fair amount of room treatment.

My Cary amps drove planars, monitors, and floorstanders with power and beauty for 13 years.

Rclark · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 04:21 am »

I want a tube amp just for the glow. For my Maggies, I'll never afford the tube amp that can match my Ncores, so there's pretty much no point in trying. So soon I'm going to Bottlehead to begin putting together my headphone rig which will be tube based.

Mr. Orange I need to spring for a decent camera so I can show my Magnestands too. I love the white sock, mine are black. It would be neat if Maggie made different shades for those, seems like a no brainer accessory they could offer.

medium jim · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 05:20 am »

That is interesting, I've always felt I couldn't afford a SS amp that could compete with a good tube amp, go figure...

Jim

Rclark · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 05:42 am »

You were wrong. You can get a TBI Millenia for $500.