Oppo DSD

Russtafarian · « **on:** 27 Mar 2013, 10:45 pm »

It's here!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/news-flash-oppo-now-plays-dsd-files

I'll be trying this with my 103 asap.

Russ

Phil A · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Mar 2013, 11:01 pm »

Just read the Stereophile report. Let us know how it works out. Don't have either player yet as I plan to move early next year but that's certainly a feature that may spur me to buy more than one player for the new place.

ted_b · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 01:05 am »

As reported earlier, the DSD file support (I recommend DSF, as usual) is only via local USB drives, not asynch USB (which is a capability of the 105, but not for this unfortunately). But here is the big question:
In what way will these files sound that much better than the discs that can be played in these Oppos all along. I mean, it's great to have DSD playback but like any PCM computer playback...the beauty is being able to send the hirez content to higher end DACS. But in this case, the DAC is the same one you are using for the discs you just ripped!! Of course hdd playback brings browsing and playlisty-like convenience, but not that much, being that the GUI is simply your video monitor.

So, net/net...Russ...tell us how much better the files sound than the disc. This will be a most telling a/b cuz for the first time the only difference is file vs disc (i.e same DAC in the player).

Phil A · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 01:59 am »

For me, eventually, if this is viable, it may make sense to get the 105 for a secondary system I may use a bit given it has a decent DAC and I can have the convenience of the files and the interface. Not thinking it's something that is going to be a main system solution. If I need a universal player for a system somewhere and have the files, it makes it easier to buy it and a hard drive for convenience.

Airborn · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 02:56 am »

I just read the Stereophile report and downloaded the firmware onto a USB. I'll be installing it on my BDP-103 later tonight and trying it out. I don't expect it to sound better than DSD through my TEAC UD-501, especially as that plays DSD 128/5.6 files. Does anyone know if the Oppo will be able to play those also, or just DSD 64/2.8?

In any case, the fact that the new firmware supports multi-channel dsd playback is also significant I think. There has not been a way to do this with my external Teac dsd dac and I lack the capacity to do what Ted did with the multiple Myteks. So I look at this as an affordable way to playback dsd downloads (not just discs) in multi-channel format.

neekomax · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 04:50 pm »

Quote from: Airborn on 28 Mar 2013, 02:56 am

In any case, the fact that the new firmware supports multi-channel dsd playback is also significant I think. There has not been a way to do this with my external Teac dsd dac and I lack the capacity to do what Ted did with the multiple Myteks. So I look at this as an affordable way to playback dsd downloads (not just discs) in multi-channel format.

Yeah, I think that this is the coolest aspect of this news as well... along with the fact that the 103 is $500!!

Russtafarian · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 06:48 pm »

O.K., I updated the firmware on my BDP-103 and spent some time goofing around with DSD playback from USB storage. It works, but before I get into sound quality observations, there are a couple configuration/navigation issues to mention.

Updating to the new beta test firmware requires downloading the file from Oppo’s website to a USB drive and connecting the USB drive to the Oppo player. The network firmware update feature will not install the beta test firmware.

Unlike dropping a disc in the tray and hitting play, file playback from USB storage requires the remote and a monitor to navigate the menus. My 103 is in a music only system so I have no incentive to buy and connect an HDMI monitor/TV of any size. I use an old 8” TFT screen connected to the “diagnostic” composite video output. This output doesn’t show video but it allows me to navigate the menus.

When playing DSD files or SACD discs, the Oppo’s volume control DOES NOT work. It operates like a mute control; 0 is off and 1 through 100 is full level. The volume control does work if SACD/DSD output is changed to PCM. But if you are thinking of connecting the Oppo directly to an amp to play DSD, forget it. You have to use a preamp or some other volume control solution.

Metadata for DSD files is limited to folder and file names. The metadata embedded in my DSF files was not displayed by the Oppo’s playback menus. Metadata for SACD discs is more complete since the Oppo hits the Gracenotes metadatabase when a disc is inserted. No cover art is displayed for either files or discs. The HDMI video output might be a different story, but I have no way to check that.

To test out DSD file playback from USB storage I loaded stereo DSF files to a USB flash drive and plugged it into the front panel USB port. I chose two SACDs that have served as reference discs for many years: Forget About It by Alison Krauss and French Piano Trios by The Floristan Trio. I compared disc playback to file playback on the 103. I also compared Oppo DSD playback to Jriver/Benchmark DAC2 DSD playback.

Yes, DSD file playback does sound better than SACD disc playback on the Oppo, but both sound really good. The difference isn’t night and day huge, but it is significant. Compared to DSD file playback, the SACD sounds a bit truncated in terms of soundstage size and dimensionality. Highs are not as extended and airy and instrument/vocal textures aren’t as fleshed out.

The overall character of the 103 remained consistent between discs and files. The 103 (after some modest modifications) has a round, pleasant, presentation that gives up some resolution and transparency for organic flow. Bass is a bit light and loose, and the upper midrange/lower treble is slightly muted. But overall, it’s a fun, easy player to listen to. A few months ago when the Benchmark DAC2 was still breaking in, the Oppo was so much more enjoyable to listen to, that I was seriously second guessing my decision to buy the DAC2. Now that the DAC2 has settled in, it is clearly the superior digital source.

Playing back the same DSF files through Jriver and the DAC2 opens up the size and spatial dimensionality of the soundstage. Instrument and vocal character and textures are more finely delineated. The overall presentation does a better job of inviting me into the musical experience that the artist is creating. The Oppo is really good, but the DAC2 is much better.

So my initial conclusion is that DSD file playback on the Oppo BDP-103 does sound better than playback of the source SACD. The SACD still sound great, but playing the DSD file provides a nice step forward in sound quality. If someone is willing to live with navigation and metadata limitations, this is a simpler, lower cost alternative to doing the whole computer audio/USB DAC thing. That said, my Jriver/Benchmark DAC2 setup with Jremote Ipod control is superior in every significant way: navigation ease, metadata access, and most importantly, sound quality.

I haven’t played with multi-channel yet; that will require a little more setup and configuration. I’ll compare DSF files to SACD discs as I did before. I’ll also compare DSD multi-channel file playback to my music server multi-channel setup: Foobar controlling and transcoding DSD to 24/88 PCM and sending it to the Oppo via HDMI. That should be interesting.

Russ

Airborn · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 07:02 pm »

Well it works! It appears to be limited to DSD 64/2.8 MHz files at this time, as I couldn't play DSD 128/5.6 MHz files. Below is a screen shot I took of the BDP-103 playing back a DSD.dff file. Unfortunately, the metadata doesn't appear to be recognized by the Oppo as with SACD's, although I don't have much album art in my DSD files yet as I have such limited DSD content. I also don't have my SACDs ripped to DSD yet, so I can't compare disc playback to USB playback of the same material. I know that's not very helpful.

However, I can say the Oppo 103 plays DSD files downloaded to a USB very well. Compared to SACD playback I would give the edge to the DSD files, although once again, it's hard to tell with differnet material. Most of my SACDs are rock and most of DSD downloads are of the "audiophile" variety, emphasizing acoustic, vocals, classical and jazz.

What I could compare directly are the same DSD downloads played through the Oppo and via my laptop using foobar2000 into my TEAC UD-501 dac. To me the Oppo does not sound better than playback through my laptop (i5 w/8GB RAM Win 7x64) via USB to the TEAC. There is a slight "digitalness" or slightly artificial aspect to the sound from the Oppo that is totally absent when the same DSD files are played through the TEAC and which only becomes apparent to me when directly comparing the two back to back. I could also hear the same difference between SACD playback on the Oppo and DSD direct through the TEAC, albeit with different material. I assume that is just the difference between the Cirrus Logic chipset in the Oppo compared to the BurrBrown PCM1795 in the TEAC, but it could be the filters in the TEAC as well. It would be interesting to hear what someone who has the BDP-105 thinks of DSD through the highly touted ESS SABRE32 Reference DAC chips (ES9018) in the 105.

Airborn · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 07:42 pm »

Great post Russ. I must have been typing my observations when you posted because I didn't see it before I posted. I agree with you about the Oppo 103 being a very enjoyable player and this is a good way to be able to check out DSD on the cheap, especially if you already own the Oppo. Eventually, I am sure Oppo and others will fix the metadata and other issues and we will see players that enable direct asynch usb playback. For now, however, computer playback through a separate DAC is just far and away more convenient for the reasons you mention and sounds better too, at least in my set up. What I am really interested in and where the Oppo may change the calculus is multi-channel DSD playback, which until now has been virtually impossible. I don't have any multi-channel dsd downloads (are there any?) and my SACDs aren't ripped to dsd yet, so I can't try multi-channel myself yet, but I look forward to your comments on it.

Quote

I haven’t played with multi-channel yet; that will require a little more setup and configuration. I’ll compare DSF files to SACD discs as I did before. I’ll also compare DSD multi-channel file playback to my music server multi-channel setup: Foobar controlling and transcoding DSD to 24/88 PCM and sending it to the Oppo via HDMI. That should be interesting.

ted_b · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 08:01 pm »

Thanks gentleman! great first impressions. it doesn;t surprise me at all that the GUI is an issue (as I stated earlier) as well as the metadata (a pet peeve of mine; I hate ISOs and DFF for that reason). It didn't even dawn on my the DSD volume issue! That means you'll need an analog multichannel preamp like I;m using with my stacked Myteks to do pure native DSD 5.1 channel trims. And forget about distance/delay settings.

All in all a nice step forward for DSD downloads vendors. And for those who own an Oppo 103 or 105 connected to video. But even budget DACs like the TEAC (and of course more advanced like the B-mark DAC2) seem to be outperforming this solution, so we'll have to see what the 105 owners come back with.

Airborn · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 08:08 pm »

Ted,

Do you know where I can find downloadable multi-channel DSD? I thought maybe Channel Classics but didn't see any there.

edit: Nevermind, I found some on Channel Classics.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 08:17 pm »

Yes, I am looking forward to the 105 reports. And maybe a Modwright owner will also chime in...

clang · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Mar 2013, 12:42 am »

Great news and 'review', Russ and Airborn. Have you tried taking the signal from the digital out to a DAC? I wonder what you'll get. I know you can't get digital signal from SACDs, but what if the input is a DSD file.

tubesguy2 · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Mar 2013, 02:52 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 28 Mar 2013, 01:05 am

But here is the big question:
In what way will these files sound that much better than the discs that can be played in these Oppos all along. I mean, it's great to have DSD playback but like any PCM computer playback...the beauty is being able to send the hirez content to higher end DACS. But in this case, the DAC is the same one you are using for the discs you just ripped!!
So, net/net...Russ...tell us how much better the files sound than the disc. This will be a most telling a/b cuz for the first time the only difference is file vs disc (i.e same DAC in the player).

This has puzzled me for a long time. Are there not SACD players with good, and well-implemented, DAC chipsets and good output stages? I've been assuming that a large part of the interest in DSD via computer is to take the spinning disc out of the picture. Otherwise I would have guessed the way forward was to just get a better SACD player, as they continue to evolve, for what is for most of us still a small fraction of our music libraries.

ted_b · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Mar 2013, 03:13 pm »

Removing the spinning disc is only one aspect of computer audio. Using a dedicated stand alone much higher quality (as high as you can afford) higher-end DAC that has been optimized for USB (or pick your input) playback is the biggest reason, and certainly convenient chair-based full library browsing and uninterrupted library playback, in any order, is a big draw.

So while this Oppo commitment to file-based DSD in both 2 channel and multichannel form is a big deal, it is not groundbreaking...as these players have been able to do this for a long time....they just happened to have needed the disc. So my three tenets of computer audio are addressed only fractionally (get rid of spinning disc, provide a semblance of browsing).

Russtafarian · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Mar 2013, 05:04 pm »

Quote

Have you tried taking the signal from the digital out to a DAC? I wonder what you'll get. I know you can't get digital signal from SACDs, but what if the input is a DSD file.

I verified that the Oppo 103/105 does not output any digital signal from SPDIF when playing a SACD or a DSD file.

Russ

klao · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 05:17 am »

I read somewhere that Oppo's SACD spinning is not pure DSD playback (convert to PCM?) in the first place, as compared to those expensive transport + DAC units from EMM Labs, Esoteric, MSB, dCs, etc.

If that's true, does this have any bearing on DSD file playback by Oppo versus other DSD DACs' ?

Thanks.

ted_b · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 01:56 pm »

Quote from: klao on 30 Mar 2013, 05:17 am

I read somewhere that Oppo's SACD spinning is not pure DSD playback (convert to PCM?) in the first place, as compared to those expensive transport + DAC units from EMM Labs, Esoteric, MSB, dCs, etc.

If that's true, does this have any bearing on DSD file playback by Oppo versus other DSD DACs' ?

Thanks.

The review at HiFI+ (UK, I think that was the name) incorrectly had the Oppo set for PCM and was using the wrong HDMi output. It was a case of ignorance; not reading the manual. The Oppo is SABRE chip-bases like many DSD-capable DAC; it plays back DSD in native format if set to do so (what happens inside any of these DACs is for the more technical...DSD actually becomes 5 bit, etc.....but that's not the issue). The difference in sonic goodness from playback has much more to do with quality of aprts (i.,e price) and design of the analog stage and power supplies. Of course a $7k-15k playback setup will likely outdo a $500 Oppo!

roscoeiii · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 02:07 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 30 Mar 2013, 01:56 pm

Of course a $7k-15k playback setup will likely outdo a $500 Oppo!

That's crazy talk Ted. The Oppo is a "Giant Killer"!!!! Oh the unfettered enthusiasm for some gear...

Not that Oppos don't sound great, but to expect an Oppo to beat big dollar stuff (or likely even a stand-alone DAC at the same price point) is wishful thinking, IME.

ted_b · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 02:54 pm »

I will post this on my "free DSD samples" sticky too, but for those with the Oppo (or stacked Myteks

) the Nordic label 2L has taken their wonderful DXD-based surround files and converted them to DSD (for their SACD releases, mainly). There are now 10 free tracks of multichannel DFF on their test bench website. Morten claims they did it in response to the Oppo announcement...so it's working.

http://www.2l.no/hires/