[quietglow]

Thanks to my crack dealer, er good friend, roscoeiii I have a new cart to play with: a Signet TK5ea. Info is relatively scarce, but whats out there all seems to suggest it's a nice cartridge. Its the one that looks like this:





It came sans a stylus, so I've begun looking around for one and I've found that I have a relatively large array of choices. Basically any AT stylus that has this form factor will fit on it:



Does anyone have any experience matching a stylus to one of these carts? Barring that, what ought I be looking for when picking from among all the options?

For instance: ATN130E and ATN120E both fit, seem to be the same price, and are both orange (a huge plus).

[quietglow]

(answering my own question for the sake of other people who end up looking for this same info)

The specs for this cart are these:

Freq. Response: 10-30,000Hz
Tracking Forces: 3/4 - 1-3/4 grams
Channel Balance 1.0 dB
Channel seperation: at 1kHz 29dB, at 10kHz 20dB
Output at 5cm/sec: 4.2mV
Stylus tip: 0.2 x 0.7 mil nude square shank elliptical
Stylus cantilever: Tapered tube
Magnetic system: Dual Magnet
Vertical tracking angle: 20 degrees
Load impedance: 47,000 ohms
Cartridge Inductance: 1,000mH
DC Resistance: 1,200 ohms
Cartridge weight: 6.8 grams

Now, off to find which of the styli match those original specs (tapered tube should limit it nicely)

Done: the TK5Ea looks to be an AT130 with a much nicer body. So the AT130 stylus is going to be the closest thing to an original replacement.

[MaxCast]

I have a Signet TK5e and was told the same thing by a member.  Basically, any AT1x replacement will work.
But my body has two circular dish indents that appear to be part of the needle assembly.



so I have done nothing at the moment   
It will be interesting to see any more insight on this thread.  Did you buy the AT130?

[quietglow]

But my body has two circular dish indents that appear to be part of the needle assembly.

Yeah I saw photos of the one with the indents. There must be at least two versions as mine doesn't have them. I am waiting until the local hifi shop opens before ordering the stylus online. They stock AT carts, so I have fingers crossed that they'll have a stylus. Instant gratification is awesome. Will report back.

[neobop]

Any modern 120/440 type will fit. The Signet stylus w/side grips has more plastic and won't fit on a 120 without a plastic trim, but the others will fit the Signet.  Here's a vintage selection of NOS needles. Any from group K or L will fit.
http://stereoneedles.com/audio-technica.html

Seems that the ATN155LC ($180) is much beloved for these carts, and the TK7 series also.  [note: that does not include the orig TK5E, 7E]  The 155LC has a beryllium cantilever and a nude sq shank line contact. The 120E is nice in a more budget offering. It's a straight alum cantilever and a nude .3 x .7 elliptical. If you're not going to go for the 155, the 140LC is a tapered alum/nude LC and the 125LC is the same but with a bonded tip. I'd recommend either the 155 or the 120.  Whichever you choose, the cart will take on the compliance and VTF of the new stylus so that, in combination with your arm, should be a factor in selection.
neo

[MaxCast]

Thanks for that info.  I assume groups K or L will fit on guietglow's TK5ea and on my TK5e except for the 155 which will not fit the 5e.
So now we need to figure compliance and mass (VTF??) as it relates to our individual arm?
Now to pick a shape       Diamond cuts may be a thread all by itself.

Don't mean to jump into your thread qg but I figured we have similar bodies and may have similar replacement needles.

[neobop]

Thanks for that info.  I assume groups K or L will fit on guietglow's TK5ea and on my TK5e except for the 155 which will not fit the 5e.
So now we need to figure compliance and mass (VTF??) as it relates to our individual arm?
Now to pick a shape       Diamond cuts may be a thread all by itself.

Don't mean to jump into your thread qg but I figured we have similar bodies and may have similar replacement needles.

NO, that's a big negatory - no-go, nix, nada.

Those styli are for the TK5Ea only. 

Sorry, I didn't realize you're running a TK5E, which is an earlier version.  The answer for your cart is D, none of the above.  Seriously, if you turn the stylus over you should see a plug that holds the cantilever and fits into the body of the cart. This plug should be round on the TK5E.  It's square on the 5Ea, so you'd be trying to put a square plug in a round hole.

I'm pretty sure any group A through E will fit.  The ATN12XE looks like a good buy. I'll check on that for you.
neo

[quietglow]

  Whichever you choose, the cart will take on the compliance and VTF of the new stylus so that, in combination with your arm, should be a factor in selection.
neo

I hadn't considered this at all -- excellent point. This will be mounted on an Audioquest PT6 (which was an exceptionally generous gift from orthobiz, something I need to make a post of itself) which is medium mass arm. That would, I believe, lend itself to something middle of the road compliance-wise. That's interesting since these styli seem to all be pretty high compliance (VTFs under 1g in most cases I think).

[neobop]

I hadn't considered this at all -- excellent point. This will be mounted on an Audioquest PT6 (which was an exceptionally generous gift from orthobiz, something I need to make a post of itself) which is medium mass arm. That would, I believe, lend itself to something middle of the road compliance-wise. That's interesting since these styli seem to all be pretty high compliance (VTFs under 1g in most cases I think).

Some of the carts were rather compliant, but few actually tracked at < 1g.  AT would recommend a wide range of VTF and usually the minimum .75g or so, was too light.  The 155LC is more compliant than a 440 or 120.
I don't know the mass of the PT6, medium could be from around 11 to 17g.  If it's on the high mass end, an  ATN7V would be a good choice. The cart style even looks like the old Signet.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT7V.html

That's a nude .2 x .7 elliptical on a tapered cantilever - $95. Best of all, cu is 7 @100Hz. That's about 16cu @ 10Hz. Very nice sounding stylus on a med/heavy arm. The only AT I've heard of that's less compliant is some 3400 series, the 95E/Clearaudio MM and varients. They're 6.5cu at 100Hz = 15cu @ 10Hz.

If you want to go exotic the ATN152LC would be a better choice.  That's beryllium/nude LC and compliance is the same as a 440 or 150. I suspect that one will knock your socks off if the arm is on the lighter side of medium. The 152ML is my all time favorite AT stylus. VTF is 1.5g, it was a P-mount, but compliance is less than some 1/2" mounts. Go figure.
neo

Edit: I forgot to mention - all AT MMs require less than 200pF total shunt capacitance. That's arm wire + cables + preamp. So open up your pre and snip out the caps    (kidding)
Really, it's a problem because more than 200pF will make it sound brighter. Around 50pF preamp is often just right.

[neobop]

MaxCast,
Hope you didn't order a stylus before I saw your second post. Exchanging is a PIA.
I don't think there are any fitment problems with any stylus from AT-10 through AT-20.  Sometimes there's too much plastic and you have to trim.  The Signet stylus has deep sides and the body should accommodate any with a round plug. What arm are you using and do you have a price range?
neo

[quietglow]

I don't know the mass of the PT6, medium could be from around 11 to 17g.

I just hunted around for 20 minutes and couldn't come up with an answer either. I found one thread in which someone claimed the Jelco version (it's a rebadged Jelco) was 18g, another person disputed that, and no resolution was had. I think its safe to say that it's on the heavier side of medium, so the ATN7V might be the way to go.

I should mention that this arm/cart is part of a two arm/cart setup: the other is a Denon 103r on a Rek-O-Kut S120 arm. So extremely high mass arm with low compliance MC cart (that, btw, sounds just mind-blowingly good on most stuff).

[JackD]

neobop

From our pm conversations Maxcast is going to use the Signet on either the JVC QL-A7 or the Technics SL-1200.  I recommended the AT-12XE or the 12E as a starting point to find out if he likes the voicing of the AT line without spending too much.  If I remember correctly he is using the Vista phono preamp which has a stock capacitance of 150pf to start with unless he got it modified by Bruno.  I don't know about the Technics, but the stock JVC cables average around 95pf.

[neobop]

Hi Jack,  MaxCast,
I'm guessing that the JVC (S?) arm is a bit heavier than the 1200.  That would make the Technics prob a better match for 12XE cu.  It looks like a "best buy" for $50.   The 14's and 15/20 are better for a heavier arm.  The beryllium 20SS is $200 and that might be a bit much.  The ATS14 should be good.  There seems to be much love for that cart.  There are probably Jicos for them and the 12S, SA.  I don't know the cu for all of them, it's better to use the VTF range cause the cu figures in VE look wrong. 

I don't know the specs of the 5E and I was a little surprised to see the inductance of the 5Ea.  I doubt if it will have that AT "house sound", but capacitance recommendations are even more important with a high inductance cart.  150pF is a poorly chosen number IMO.  100pF has become the de facto standard, just like 47K did years ago.  50pF is near ideal for ATs with most arms/cables, as with many other modern carts.  It's easy to add shunt capacitance, but if it's soldered on the board..........  I've heard the Vista is pretty good though, I'll have to check out the MKII.
neo

[MaxCast]

Thanks guys for your help, did not buy anything.  JackD is correct.  He has graciously helped me settle on a Grado with a 8MZ stylus on the JVC which I really like.  I got a good deal on the 1200 locally and "gave" the 1200 to my boys to use.  It has a 440lma and that table really confirmed (by switching tables and carts/headshells) the stylus on the signet was bad (very dull, laid back sounding).   I find the 440 to have a little bit too much treble/detail.

bastlnut has a ql-a7 and stated in a previous post it was "a 13g-14g arm using the standard 10g headshell and the arm is one of the UA 5075 versions."  I have the original audiovista phono pre, original cables on the jvc with new RCAs. 

quietglow started this thread and I was hoping the two carts were close enough I could get some easy info on needle replacement.  I have the cart just sitting here and I have a birthday present coming up     You've given me three choices in a wide price range and I thank you for that.  Now we need to find the mass of the PT6 for QG.

[JackD]

The number that appears most often for the PT-6 is 18 grams. Similar to the numbers for the Jelco 250

[neobop]

The PT6 is probably a hair lighter than that, but Quietglow should be fine with the 7v stylus.  Eff mass is not just about weight, it's the same as moment of inertia and length is a big factor, as is weight distribution and proximity of counterweight to pivots, but that's another discussion. People tend to make too much of eff mass and having a blissful 10Hz resonance freq.  A synergistic match up is where it's at even if, Heaven forbid, it strays out of the 8 to 12Hz neutral zone.  Look out if that happens, the Klingons might get you and they're cloaked. 

Thanks guys for your help, did not buy anything.  JackD is correct.  He has graciously helped me settle on a Grado with a 8MZ stylus on the JVC which I really like.  I got a good deal on the 1200 locally and "gave" the 1200 to my boys to use.  It has a 440lma and that table really confirmed (by switching tables and carts/headshells) the stylus on the signet was bad (very dull, laid back sounding).   I find the 440 to have a little bit too much treble/detail.

bastlnut has a ql-a7 and stated in a previous post it was "a 13g-14g arm using the standard 10g headshell and the arm is one of the UA 5075 versions."  I have the original audiovista phono pre, original cables on the jvc with new RCAs. 

quietglow started this thread and I was hoping the two carts were close enough I could get some easy info on needle replacement.  I have the cart just sitting here and I have a birthday present coming up     You've given me three choices in a wide price range and I thank you for that.  Now we need to find the mass of the PT6 for QG.

Good to hear that the Grado is working out. Speaking of Grado, I wonder where BaMorin is lately. Our resident Grado expert doesn't seem to reside here anymore.  Hope he hasn't been kicked off, that would be our loss.  Maybe he just cut back on posting.  It is time consuming.

The 440 is largely responsible for the opinion of AT overly bright house sound. Here, shunt capacitance considerations are even more important, but sometimes you're limited in options correcting that. I'd recommend a couple of loading plugs to change input impedance to 32K. Amazing what a couple of resistors can do. Get a pair of reasonably matched 1/4 watt (not critical) 100K resistors. If you don't have a meter get IRC RC55 series at Mouser.  They're 0.1% metal film, neutral sounding, and cost around a $1 ea. With that tolerance you don't have to buy a bunch of the same value and match em up. 

To make the plug, just solder the resistor between the center and ground. You can do this on the inside of the preamp right on the jack - will do the same thing and you don't need the plugs. Anyway, get a couple of Y adaptors with 2 females, plug the arm cable into 1 and the plug into the other.
Here's some bad pics:










I like the solid body Y adaptor with the cable going straight in at the end, but the other style works fine, especially on a mid fi system where there might not be enough room for the solid style.

The Signet might be an alternate on the JVC?  You could always try a lighter headshell.  That works better with a high compliance cart, but eff mass seems moderate - pivot damping?  I think the TK5E has potential, but I'm not sure about differences between 5E and Ea. Styli selection tends to be limited in the older round plug models. Some of them were before the LC and micros were invented. You might have a winner there, I'll look into it further. I'm curious.
neo

[neobop]

I have it on good authority, that both these Signets are very listenable carts. This is the reply from Timeltel, a Signet aficionado:

"Both are nice carts, the 5e if a warmer presentation is preferred.

The 5ea is more forward, esp. in the upper mids & hfs, the greatest advantage is in that the later 5ea accepts replacement styli still in production, from 120e through the excellent 155lc (beryllium/LC), as well as the 122-152 P-mount styli without the swing down guard.

Output for the earlier TK5e is 2.7mv, the later 5ea is (IIRC) 4.9, if compared to instruments the 5e is more of a reedy presentation, the 5ea seats itself in the brass section, it's definitely brighter but NOT fatiguing.

Your friend might consider the TK3ea, a lower inductance cart which has the same specs of the TK7LCa, or the very similar (and contemporary) AT-7V, which comes with a 0.2 x 0.7 elliptical on aluminum cantilever, the 7V tracks at 1.6gm VTA as compared to the 1.0gm (+-) for the other three carts named above. The 7V will accept any of the 120 through 160 styli, should options be a factor."

The AT7V, a current offering, has generated quite a following.  It's good on med mass arms and has only been in the US for a year or two, as it used to be Japanese only. Great buy for $160
http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT7V.html

The AT-100E is a terrific buy also.  Same generator as the 150MLX with a light weight body and a less expensive stylus. $90
http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT100E.html

Since you already have the TK5E, which should be to your liking, here's a needle that I think would compliment the sound.
http://www.turntableneedles.com/Audio-Technica-Type-ATN15-ATN20-series-Jico-Hyperelliptical--Our-Needle-203-DHE_p_4129.html

This is a bonded hyperelliptical, not cheap, but Jico makes a high quality replacement.  Since you're liking the Grado, you're in a good position to think about it and wait till you feel like trying something different.
neo

[MaxCast]

awesomeness.

[quietglow]

awesomeness.

Seconded. I think this thread is now the most concentrated source of info on these carts on the web. Many thanks to all.