[Blueshirt1]

I just picked up a Ars Sonum Fila. 50hr for first break before I can leave it on for over 3 hours. then 100hr for the next break in sonically. Most say after 500hrs is when it really begins to shine.

But my question is how do people track those hours to know when these milestones aoccur and then looking into the future, when do you know its time to replace the tubes?

Thanks

[medium jim]

I just picked up a Ars Sonum Fila. 50hr for first break before I can leave it on for over 3 hours. then 100hr for the next break in sonically. Most say after 500hrs is when it really begins to shine.

But my question is how do people track those hours to know when these milestones aoccur and then looking into the future, when do you know its time to replace the tubes?

Thanks

500 hours? Most tubes will burn-in within 100 hours.  Understand, the gases inside the tube aren't fully formed and during the "burn-in", they fully form.  There is no obsolute to how long it takes, but certainly not 500 hours. 

Jim

[FullRangeMan]

Pal, I glad you open this topic !!
I thought only I take note of the time of use of tubes.
I have a RTF text file for each valve.

I take note of some data in this files of every listening session, as date, start time, end time, duration of use with heating and room temperature.
In fact I had a paper backup in a big ata book.

I want to know how many hours the tubes will lasts for purposes of future purchases, price/cost ratio and general reliability info.
I unknow other nut that do it besides me, but I think this is entirely normal...

[Blueshirt1]

500 hours? Most tubes will burn-in within 100 hours.  Understand, the gases inside the tube aren't fully formed and during the "burn-in", they fully form.  There is no obsolute to how long it takes, but certainly not 500 hours

Some owners have said that this amp actual 1000 hrs is the full break in. But critical listening should not even begin before 100. and you can expect to to improve from there.

[Blueshirt1]

Pal, I glad you open this topic !!
I thought only I take note of the time of use of tubes.
I have a RTF text file for each valve.

I take note of some data in this files of every listening session, as date, start time, end time, duration of use with heating and room temperature.
In fact I had a paper backup in a big ata book.

Oh man I wish I was that organized.  Maybe I need to start to be.

[thunderbrick]

   Why spoil the listening with so much work?   

[medium jim]

Some owners have said that this amp actual 1000 hrs is the full break in. But critical listening should not even begin before 100. and you can expect to to improve from there.

I would love to know who these owners are? 

Jim

[Blueshirt1]

From Bobby Palkovic at Merlin Music

yes after maybe 100 hours it gets better but after 500 to a 1000 hours it is like liquid and much more pristine.

From Ricardo at Ars Spnum

On a general way, the complete time for the break-in is around of 150 hours. Nevertheless it will not be until 500 hour working hours have passes that the amp will totally be stable in its working state. After this time, all the components will have gone through the initial aging phase, which is most critical and when the greatest changes in characteristics take place

[medium jim]

From Bobby Palkovic at Merlin Music

From Ricardo at Ars Spnum

Interesting to say the least, but not factual. Look, I'm trying to be snarky or uppity. but let's talk about current production tubes, which for power tubes last about 2000 to 2500 hours and the smaller 9 pin preamp/driver tubes about 5000.   It would be foolish to think that a power tube will be at or near half life before it is fully formed and burned-in. 20% for the smaller guys.

Here's a link from ARC:

http://www.audioresearch.com/vacuum.html

Here's a good primer on vacuum tubes:

http://www.kk5dr.com/Tubes.html

While the above link indicates 48 hours for a tube to fully form, it does take a 100 to 200 hours for them to sound their best (this is my personal experience).

Is there value in buying NOS?  I for one think so as the tooling, metallurgy, gases were better as was the construction.  This means that Power Tubes typically last for 5K hours and the smaller 8 and 9 pin tubes, 10K hours or more.  Of course this means taking care of your tubes by keeping them biased, proper ventilation and letting them warm up for a good 30 minutes before applying music to them. 

Jim

[Blueshirt1]

Jim,

I appreciate  the info and agree it could be pretty subjective. Perhaps they were not talking specifically about the tubes itself but the component as a whole.

I an event, I do need to keep tract of the first 50 hours of tube use before being able to leave it on over 3 hours and max volume per manufacturers instructions. And we all do need to have a idea of overall tube usage to gauge replacement time.

I was just trying to see how people do it differently. Maybe its nothing more then just having a piece of paper next to your amp and recording playing times. But know this group I figured someone would have an interesting idea.

[JakeJ]

I keep very loose track of the hours.  I just listen until they start to die and change sonically, then I get out the tester and find the bad tube(s).  Yes I know, not a very scientific or or even a mildly attentive attitude towards my fancy, dope, all-tube hi-fi...but I'm lazy.

A friend of mine purchased and installed an hour meter similar to this:
http://www.amazon.com/Hour-Meter-120-AC-Volts/dp/B0027NLO8K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361609073&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+hour+meter+120+volts
When his amp is on so is his timer.  Easy peasy!  Hmmm...this is something I should do.

While Fullrangeman's approach is more labor intensive let's remember that to some this is part of their joy in the hobby, the technical minutia.  We all obsess about one thing or another.

[JohnR]

But my question is how do people track those hours to know when these milestones aoccur

Um, presumably, you would hear it. That's the whole point isn't it...?

[twitch54]

Some owners have said that this amp actual 1000 hrs is the full break in.

 

[Freo-1]

I don't go crazy over this.  Every so often, I'll pull out the Hickok 6000, and test them.  When any tube becomes marginal, it is replaced. 
 
Pretty simple. 

[underdawg]

I do the same, pull em out and test them periodically, or when I notice sound changes in my system.

[decal]

Um, presumably, you would hear it. That's the whole point isn't it...?

Exactly.

[Doublej]

Um, presumably, you would hear it. That's the whole point isn't it...?

But tubes usually degrade slowly over time. So you may not realize what you are missing unless you have new, yet broken in tube to compare it to, no?

[rbwalt]

hey blueshirt1. congrats on the Ars-Sonum. a  great integrated amp. it's bigger brother is fantastic! as far a break in bobby at merlin music will know since he is the importer and uses them at the audio shows. also rich at signature sound in liverpool ny will know also.

tube life varies from amp to amp. tube to tube. make sure guys that when you do get tubes that they are properly matched!!! i do not recommend taking tube out to test them unless you really think one is going south.the taking them out and putting them back in puts stress on the tube sockets. solder joints become lose as do the pins that hold the tubes in place. the age old saying still applies. if it ain't broke leave it alone! i had some nos EL34 siemens in my music reference RM9MKII for 11 yrs and when i had it in for service roger told me that the tubes still had good life. i know longer have it. now my RM9SE has tests points on the top of the plate so it is easy to test for bad tubes. if a tube falls out of its intended range then it is time to replace it.

as far as tube break in goes just put them in and start listening. some are going to settle in faster than others.  now if you have a amp that allows you to balance the tubes( input or out) or set the bias then these will change as the tubes settle in. of course many of you guys know all this and a simple check once a month or so is all that is needed.

tubes rule!!!

[medium jim]

But tubes usually degrade slowly over time. So you may not realize what you are missing unless you have new, yet broken in tube to compare it to, no?

Oh you will notice tubes going bad, it will not be as subtle as you think.   The bass will get loose, the timbre to the highs will be gone, the soundstage will become blurred and fuzzy and so on.

I too don't track the hours, rather enjoy the tubes until they go bad and note how long I had them in use.   It can get a bit wonky if you roll tubes, but again, it is about the music anyway.

Jim

[Blueshirt1]

Thanks all, never really owned tube gear so I didn't want to spend any energy trying to hear if a tube is going bad. Llike someone said above I'd rather "enjoy" the music then try to listen if its going bad.

So I've never experienced what it sounds like when a tube goes bad. But sounds like I will just know. Plus I do have a lot of time not to worry about this, was just something that popped in my head when I was trying to figure out if/when I hit the 50hr limit.

It does sound great now and I cant wait for the break-in and to get my Merlin VSM Masters!