[medium jim]

I guess there will always be the one who knows all and is perfect.  The type who never makes mistakes and always has the best.  Who's experience is the only that counts.  But when he gets an amp that has both balls and finesse....

Jim

[SteveFord]

The purpose of the fellow's article is budget integrateds so it'll be interesting to see what he winds up with.
I'm guessing something from Cambridge Audio will be his pick. 
Their products offer a lot of bang for the buck.

Even so, he probably covets a set of VTL Wotans.
I know I do.

I think the mylar would melt before the onset of clipping, ha, ha.

[medium jim]

Steve:

Don't dismiss Rotel and Yamaha from the short list. 

Jim

[SteveFord]

I thought about it but I'd really rather have the Wotans.

The article guy?  Yeah, that could be.

[medium jim]

I thought about it but I'd really rather have the Wotans.

The article guy?  Yeah, that could be.

I would rather have another pair of Marantz 9's, one of the finest amps ever made.



Jim

[jackman]

I heard Maggie 1.6's with a Coda integreted about ten years ago and it sounded really good.  Shockingly better than the amp I brought to the demo to try with the Maggies. I've seen head integrated amps for sale over the years pretty cheap.  That would be my choice. 

My amp was a more expensive highly regarded amp that I would rather not me took. Solid state.

[geowak]

I have a pair of MMGs. I bought them in early 2012. I don't know if they are the new ones or old ones. Mr. Diller called me to ask if I wanted to have a trial period with his new subwoofer to go with them. I did not have the money at that time, so I politely declined.

I am running the speakers with a Parasound A21. Plenty of power, but I noticed the MMG's eat it like candy. The sound is nice. But I have never connected the MMG's to my medium power tube integrated amp. Perhaps for the sake of interest I will later.

I had heard the 1.7's with some very nice MacIntosh mono gear. It was up there with the best sound I have heard with Jazz recordings. I guess that is when I fixed it into my brain that Maggies needed lots of current. Maybe not???

[rif]

I would rather have another pair of Marantz 9's, one of the finest amps ever made.

Jim

Holy... are they really $20k+??? There's a pair on a-gon

[josh358]

I had heard the 1.7's with some very nice MacIntosh mono gear. It was up there with the best sound I have heard with Jazz recordings. I guess that is when I fixed it into my brain that Maggies needed lots of current. Maybe not???

No, you're right about that. They're relatively inefficient and they're a 4 ohm load. But -- and I think this often gets lost in these debates since we each post from our own perspective -- just how much they need depends on how loud you like it, and the kinds of music you play. Because the ear hears logarithmically, a 1000 watt amplifier sounds only twice as loud as a 100 watt one. So the amp that best serves you depends strongly on your listening habits, and that's before even considering other factors (hard vs. soft clipping, behavior into a reactive or low impedance load, etc.).

[medium jim]

Holy... are they really $20k+??? There's a pair on a-gon

If they're clean, yes, but typically in the 12-18k range. For some strange reason, they continue to appreciate in value.

Jim

[medium jim]

No, you're right about that. They're relatively inefficient and they're a 4 ohm load. But -- and I think this often gets lost in these debates since we each post from our own perspective -- just how much they need depends on how loud you like it, and the kinds of music you play. Because the ear hears logarithmically, a 1000 watt amplifier sounds only twice as loud as a 100 watt one. So the amp that best serves you depends strongly on your listening habits, and that's before even considering other factors (hard vs. soft clipping, behavior into a reactive or low impedance load, etc.).

Let's say they are 86db efficient:

At 2 watts they are pumping 89db
At 4 watts 92db
At 8 watts 95db
At 16 watts 98db
At 32 watts 101db
At 64 watts 104db
At 128 watts 107db
At 256 watts 110db
At 512 watts 113db
At 1024 watts 116db
At 2048 watts 119db

That is what they simple math tells us.  Because we do hear logarithmically, each 10db is the equivalent of doubling of loudness.

Then factor in that the efficiency is per speaker and in the sweet spot you gain 3db.

Jim

[Davey]

Yep, that pair of Model 9's looks pretty good.  I repaired a pair of Marantz Model 5 amps a few years ago for a fellow.  I asked if he wanted to sell them.....he said "No." 
That really was the heyday of amplifiers.  Some of the offerings from Marantz and McIntosh are classics and will continue to appreciate.

Regarding the forum topic.  I don't see any point in NOT using a budget amplifier for MMG's.  However, I haven't seen any recommendations yet that I would consider "budget." 
Here's one:  An easy-to-build DIY Hypex combination using two UcD180 amps and a single SMPS 400 watt supply.  About $270.00 plus miscellaneous items like IEC entry module, RCA jacks, speaker posts, chassis, etc.  Probably about $300.00 total.

You can't beat that.

Dave.

[kevin360]

I would rather have another pair of Marantz 9's, one of the finest amps ever made.

Jim

Jim,

The original Model 9 is a wonderful amplifier – a legend for good reasons. The VAC reissue is even better, but dreadfully expensive – also for good reasons. Contrary to what I've read in various forums, it was Kevin Hayes who approached Marantz for the design and the rights to produce a modernized 'replica'. The good folks at Marantz pitched Kevin a counter-proposal, asking him to reproduce the Marantz amps as faithfully as possible. That meant commissioning the original parts manufacturers to fabricate those parts to their original specs – something of a tall order (and an expensive proposition). Regardless of the price of the 'replicas' (of course, being hand built by a small shop piles on more expense), VAC had no trouble selling them. Until Marantz halted their production, the Model 9 was the best selling tube amp in Japan. It's a shame that production was terminated on the reissues, but it makes the samples in existence incredibly valuable. You own a pair of treasures. I understand your enthusiasm for them. I'd be enthusiastic too!

Of course, my amp is no slouch either. Thanks to Kevin's sincere commitment to customer satisfaction, I have a one of a kind. Unfortunately, it was also dreadfully expensive even though it's far from VAC's Statement product. Until one has experience with amps like these, it's impossible to understand. Once one has such experience, it's impossible to consider anything else. If I could have any amp I wanted, it would be a pair of 450 iQ monoblocs, but I thought this thread was about budget amps.

[JerryM]

Let's say they are 86db efficient:

At 2 watts they are pumping 89db
At 4 watts 92db
At 8 watts 95db
At 16 watts 98db
At 32 watts 101db
At 64 watts 104db
At 128 watts 107db
At 256 watts 110db
At 512 watts 113db
At 1024 watts 116db
At 2048 watts 119db

That is what they simple math tells us.  Because we do hear logarithmically, each 10db is the equivalent of doubling of loudness.

Then factor in that the efficiency is per speaker and in the sweet spot you gain 3db.

Jim

It's not that simple.

If you enjoy a good read, check out this old Audio Basics Newsletter from Frank Van Alstine. Start reading at the second paragraph of page 32. He's discussing phono cartridge distortion, but the power discussion is relevant.

Have fun,

Jerry

[medium jim]

Kevin:

There were only to be made 500 pairs (per the press release for them) of the reissue model 9's and they sold out. Many did go to Japan, many stayed in the states.  I agree that the reissues are better than the originals due to modern requirements for a detachable power cord, and modern speaker inputs.

I agree that this is about budget amps for MMG's and I would go with Rotel or Yamaha to that end even if both are mid-fi SS.

Jim

[medium jim]

It's not that simple.

If you enjoy a good read, check out this old Audio Basics Newsletter from Frank Van Alstine. Start reading at the second paragraph of page 32. He's discussing phono cartridge distortion, but the power discussion is relevant.

Have fun,

Jerry

Jerry, it was for illustration purposes and doesn't account for having enough balls to drive a 4ohm load. Not all amps no matter their cost or wattage can.

Jim

[Davey]

It's not that simple.

If you enjoy a good read, check out this old Audio Basics Newsletter from Frank Van Alstine. Start reading at the second paragraph of page 32. He's discussing phono cartridge distortion, but the power discussion is relevant.

Have fun,

Jerry

Actually, it is that simple.  You have to make an assumption regarding amplifier/speaker capability, but those numbers are not incorrect.  (Probably not plausible though.)  If you measured a transducer in free-field conditions with the 86db efficiency as your baseline, you would indeed need 2048 watts to generate the 119db SPL.

The Van Alstine Audio Basics article is interesting, but there's much information missing regarding the specific setups he's describing to make his point.  For example, what type of preamp generates (or would need to) 5.6 VRMS levels during nominal operation?  And then he takes that number and extrapolates to other requirements that make the playback system unachievable.  Which I guess is his point. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[avahifi]

First of all, allmost any preamplifier is capable of generating 5.6V RMS output, given adequate input signal level.  A voltage gain of 10 is pretty standard for preamps.

Second, its been a long time since I went back and re-read that issue of Audio Basics that I wrote in 1982.  Gee, the science has not changed at all.

Note that all back issues of Audio Basics are available as free .pdf downloads here:

http://avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85&Itemid=181

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Davey]

Frank,

Yes, but no amplifier that I'm aware of (now or then) needs anywhere near that to yield its rated power output.

I get where you're going with your concept/explanation (it's actually an explanation of inadequate playback system dynamic range) but you're starting from a confusing starting point.  Signal levels within the low-level portion of the system are not really pertinent to the ultimate power requirements.  Power amplifier wattage capability and speaker sensitivity are the primary issues.

Cheers,

Dave.

[kevin360]

There were only to be made 500 pairs (per the press release for them) of the reissue model 9's and they sold out.

The plan was to manufacture 500 pairs, but production was halted before that goal was reached, IIRC. Damn, I just talked to Kevin last week and I'm already foggy on the details.   I'll ask him about this next week, just for clarification.