Integrating stereo and 5.1 ?

Brownee · « **on:** 29 Jun 2004, 12:20 pm »

Hi all,

I am just about to take the step into the AKSA owners community. I am new to things audio and I’m after some advice. Some of my thoughts and questions here might be stupid, even sacrilege to an audiophile. I don’t know. So at the risk of embarrassing my self here goes.

I plan to first build an AKSA 55 and a pair of Aksonics but my system will also have to be used for home theater . I envisaged adding more Aksa’s and Aksonics to build a 5.1 system. In correspondence with Hugh, he pointed out that integrating stereo with home theatre is difficult because of the switching leads, etc. (good point) Here is what I have been tossing around in my head. For home theater I am very interested in the concept of using a computer, HTPC. ( I have been playing around with computers for years and have enough parts to build a good system). HTPC is apparently excellent when used as a progressive scan DVD player but what about audio? If I could use the 5.1 analogue outs from a good quality sound card into the aksa’s, switching would be easy. It would be just a mater of selecting the speaker outs in software and turning off the unused amps. But how good is the analogue audio from a PC ? If this is not feasible could I come digital out into a DAKSA for better quality stereo and have it switched so I can use analog outs for 5.1.

Any other suggestions on how I could integrate stereo and 5.1 ?

Thank You
Brownee

Grumpy_Git · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Jun 2004, 01:22 pm »

The best sound on PC that I've ever heard came from External Firewire (IEEE 1934) as it had a dead quiet noise floor and I dont remember hearing any motor noise.

USB can be quit good but there are streaming issues and for some reason my usb box seems to carry over motor noise.

I use my lappie for all home cinema duties and have it plugged via an old arcam av50 which is my current pre, with a 55N on front duties.

As a side note I've developed a nasty popping and clicking on my system that seems to be caused by my alpha 7se cd player and the av50, possibly a grounding issue but it only occurs when I change inputs,volume or tracks so I'll leave it for the moment (I'm lazy and busy.)

Anyway for htpc I would say go for it. but for bog standard kiss your ears with satin lips audio avoid the pc like the plague.

(Having said that I'm looking at the Via micro ITX pcs with passive heatsinking and getting a solid state IDE memory Drive to see how it sounds for audio with a dvd rom for cd, the only moving part in the system is the dvd drive....)

Nick

EchiDna · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Jun 2004, 11:41 pm »

Brownee, head over to the square circle, it is dedicated to this kind of talk...

I do almost exactly what you are suggesting doing myself with the HTPC either running in 2 channel or 7.1 at various times for different reasons.

Analogue out of computers is a particularly hard thing to quantify to an "Audiophile" because not everything is measurable, hearable or "feel-able" to everyone in the same way.

The negative aspects of what GG has said above have been going around for years, (no disrespect GG - you have at least tried the USB and firewire stuff and know it is better

) usually said by people plugging in their laptop and playing through a cheapo, $5 integrated soundcard option. Everyone seems to think that cd mastering is done on analogue gear or something, when in reality over 90% of all recording (good and bad) is done on PC based systems with soundcards built into the pc itself with the inherent electrical "noise" from the power supply etc... people who try out the really serious options rarely turn back to cd players.

IMHO, you need to spend some money on a decent pro level audio card to get the noise floor you want and go from there, analogue out can be as good as it gets, but not from anything creative, they ALL reclock the signal, even the latest audigy series.....

anyway, I could go on and on here, come look in the square circle and ask away, you will surely find what you are looking for!

Grumpy_Git · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Jun 2004, 08:09 am »

EchiDna

I agree that internal cards have great potential for Audio and are used extensively in the Pro mixing environment (Hell my brother spends more on a soundcard than I do on HiFi) but from Brownees comments it would seem he will be using parts he has lying around and in my experience that is unlikely to contain any pro or prosumer soundcards. If he is willing to take a look at the square circle and invest a tidy (not extortinate unless he feels the need) sum on a shiny new souundcard, I'm more than willing to accept/admit/worship his new system that would probably make mine sound like a small all in one sony special ( Aksa excepted!)

Speaking of which while I'm here, any suggestions for soundcards to use in the system I mentioned earlier as I want to get a small computer in he loft for round the house tunes ( Just replace the dvd with a 120Gb Hdd and MP3/WMA everything to keep the household happy)

Nick.

I'm off to the square.......

Brownee · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Jun 2004, 11:45 am »

Nick

Thanks for your input. I do have a audigy 2 ZS sound card that you could say is a prosumer card. But by the sound of things (no pun intended) the creative card just doesn’t cut the mustard when it comes to high quality audio out. EchiDna though, has given me hope that it can work with the right card. But would a pro card (which are designed for music production) be able to hardware decode surround sound like the audigy dose?

Thanks EchiDna for the advice. I will head on over to Square Circle and do some reading.

Brownee

SamL · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Jun 2004, 11:19 pm »

Have a look at M-Audio Revo. It is popular among the HTPC inmate over AV Forum. It has good sound, flexible HT software and easy to mod hardware.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35872
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36146

Tinker · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jul 2004, 01:07 am »

Having worked in a recording studio I had the chance to measure a unmber of these and noisefloor and "motor" noise were significant problems in some. Noise floors from ~ -45dBFS through to units with noisefloors below our metering system. There are, however, a great and growing number of really good prosumer soundcards which are good enough for home studio work and great for home theatre. Many of my college buddies don't have a home theatre, but rather a laptop with a large LCD screen and multi-channel receiver they plug into at home.

Be aware that there are two kinds of soundcards, one is IN the PC or has a "breakout box" which is like an extension lead taking the DACs on the card out to a box with convenient RCA or TRS jacks, the other has a digital in/out and the the "breakout" box is actually a standalone DAC and A/D. The former can have serious noise issues (not to mention one I saw recently with a 120V potential between the card cage and the subwoofer out), but the latter obviously don't suffer from the same kinds of hideous noisefloor contamination that many (but not all) internal cards have. Prices are such these days that the gap between these models is closing, but the good stuff is still nearly as expensive as ever.

Lastly, one thing you will find frustrating with proaudio soundcards is that home/small studio digital recording tends to do a lot of signal processing in the host. So there is a need for many inputs to a system for record instruments, but all the patching and mixing is internal, so there is little need for outputs, often there is only two. This is where some of the newer external DAC systems are great. You can buy separate racks of A/D (as many as you need 8 channels at a time) and separate D/A (stereo, 5.1, or groups of 8 more common), so you buy a digital card and then get on the slippery slope of DAC upgrades.

T.

EchiDna · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jul 2004, 04:12 am »

C'mon tinker, give some details like makes and models

my recommended list (if you can afford em!):
RME hammerfall series
Lynx L22
Cardeluxe

cheaper, but almost as good:
MAudio Revolution (modded if you can handle SMT work)
EMU 1280 (I think that is the right model)
MAudio audiophile 24/96 or other models if you want more channels.

Tinker · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jul 2004, 11:01 am »

Quote from: EchiDna

C'mon tinker, give some details like makes and models

OK.

Among the many fine products I have had good experiences with with multiple channel systems
MOTU (Mark of the Unicorn - firewire system and outboard DACs)
RME (Hammerfall series)
Echo/Event Electronics (Layla)
ST Audio
Aardvark

For the record I own an Event system. Event is now called echo. I have an old 20bit system. They now have 24/96 systems now with a revamped line of products. Should up grade. You know how it is.

If you want to get reviews from the horse's mouth check out places like the Cubase or Nuendo users groups to get opinions form folk who do home or project studio recording and have to deal with these things a lot. I haven't cheked these out in over a year, but these kinds of users groups used to be places to get VERY honest opinions. Card with a lots of topics beginning "problem with..." area dead giveaway...

T.