[Maritan]

I'm not sure if this topic should be here or in the Cheap & Cheerful circle. Please move it necessary.

I've done some research, and I can see that the best choices if you really, really want to start vinyl and you're on a budget are the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Rega RP1 and Music Hall MMF2.2 TTs.

However, I have nothing invested in vinyl. My plan is to go out and buy a cheap, and I mean <$50, and also get a pair of used LPs (already checked and I found an LP of a CD I already have to compare sound) and see if I even want to get into this rabbit hole. I've heard people wax eloquent about vinyl and want to hear for myself. And unfortunately, I do not have any friends or know anyone in my area that has a record player to go listen.

I have a TAD-150 Signature which has a MM/ MC phono pre, so I'm good there (Opinions on the quality of this pre?).

All that said, there's the following available locally for around my price:

1. Hitachi HT-202
2. Hitachi HT-20S
3. Technics SL-QD3
4. Technics SL-Q200

All are listed as perfect condition, and plug and play. Which of these would you suggest? Or would you suggest other models in the $50 range? I don't have to get into vinyl right away. So, if you suggest I look around for another TT - in my price range - I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks in advance for your help folks.

[vortrex]

My guess is a $50 table/cart might not sound as good as your CD, depending on what digital setup you have.  This is coming from someone who hates the sound of CD.

[usp1]

I bought a dual cs-530 with a grado cartridge for $60 (including shipping) and it sounds quite good. For some albums (Miles Davis - Kind of Blue) the cheapo turntable sounds better than my much more expensive digital set-up.  So don't worry about comparing to your digital set-up.

[simoon]

However, I have nothing invested in vinyl. My plan is to go out and buy a cheap, and I mean <$50, and also get a pair of used LPs (already checked and I found an LP of a CD I already have to compare sound) and see if I even want to get into this rabbit hole. I've heard people wax eloquent about vinyl and want to hear for myself. And unfortunately, I do not have any friends or know anyone in my area that has a record player to go listen.

I see several pitfalls with this approach.

1. You can't just buy a couple of records that you have CD's of and expect to get a good comparison. There are too many variables with recordings of all formats to expect a sampling of only 2 to tell you much of anything.

2. Unfortunately, a very cheap TT will not give you a fair representation of the format. The sonic compromises are too great (resonant plinth, bad tonearm, stamped platters that ring, speed stability, etc). At  best, a sub-$50 TT will give you an idea, if after the process playing records, it is something you want to pursue deeper.

3. Vinyl is a format that has it's own set of sonic attributes. Some of them are more appealing than digital, some less appealing. If you go into the process with the idea that you should compare every aspect of each format like checking off a scorecard, you may miss the aspects of vinyl that are so seductive.

[wushuliu]

I'm not sure if this topic should be here or in the Cheap & Cheerful circle. Please move it necessary.

I've done some research, and I can see that the best choices if you really, really want to start vinyl and you're on a budget are the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Rega RP1 and Music Hall MMF2.2 TTs.

However, I have nothing invested in vinyl. My plan is to go out and buy a cheap, and I mean <$50, and also get a pair of used LPs (already checked and I found an LP of a CD I already have to compare sound) and see if I even want to get into this rabbit hole. I've heard people wax eloquent about vinyl and want to hear for myself. And unfortunately, I do not have any friends or know anyone in my area that has a record player to go listen.


I have a TAD-150 Signature which has a MM/ MC phono pre, so I'm good there (Opinions on the quality of this pre?).

All that said, there's the following available locally for around my price:

1. Hitachi HT-202
2. Hitachi HT-20S
3. Technics SL-QD3
4. Technics SL-Q200

All are listed as perfect condition, and plug and play. Which of these would you suggest? Or would you suggest other models in the $50 range? I don't have to get into vinyl right away. So, if you suggest I look around for another TT - in my price range - I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks in advance for your help folks.

You'll want one of the 2 Technics. Pick whichever one is in the best condition. Also take a look to see if by chance a Philips 212 or 312 is available in your area - another cheap bang for the buck older table.

That said if you've never dealt with vinyl and you want to compare, just buying a cheap older table and plopping it next to your cd player is not the best move. An old used table may need some cleaning, parts replacement or lubing. Then there's getting the right kind of cartridge, etc. You'll want to learn about all that. If you just want to set it and forget it, you will want to get a new table.

Finally, the Denon DP300F is $329, lower than the Pro-ject, Rega and Music Hall but gets *great* reviews. It is very popular at AudioKarma but has slipped below the radar here. It is constantly sold out, but LpGear may still have some and they provide an upgraded belt for you to boot (LpGear is a great resource).

http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENDP0300F.html

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

I see several pitfalls with this approach.

... the aspects of vinyl that are so seductive.

Yes, "seductive" is the magic word describing vinyl music.

Any Joe Blow can start playing vinyl with a cheap cheap budget. Given a low cost budget sound system to work with a beginner's grade TT, the drawbacks of a cheap TT you just mentioned may not be even noticeable. Don't need to worry too much.

A good friend of mine, a church pastor, who plays piano & owns a mini grand piano & an organ at home, enjoys some background music from an old used Panasonic all-in-one record player while he is working on his church papers on his kitchen table. One nite, he invited me to his home to listen to his CD HiFi system in his family room.

We both ended up spending most of the nite in his kitchen listening to his cheapie oldie record player. So nice to listen.... vs his big CD audio system.

c-J

[Maritan]

I was afraid of what most of you have cautioned. It makes complete sense. 

My digital source is an Integra DVD player (to be upgraded to the Oppo 105). The Integra feeds a TAD-150 Signature pre, which is connected to an Emotiva XPA-2. That drives my Magnepan MMGs. I like the sound I get from this set up so far.

Looks like I might have to go a different route - Buy new - Denon, Pro-Ject, Rega, Music Hall or Marantz TT42. If I don't like it, turn around and sell it for a $$ hit that might equal that of what it might cost me to buy something used. Thoughts? And which of the 5 mentioned above would you go with? I like to listen to Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree and now am getting into jazz and fusion.

[roscoeiii]

Hi Maritan,

And welcome to AC! A great group of knowledgeable and generous folks.

I too would be worried a bit about the condition of a $50 table, and what kind of sound you would get from it. Though you will find folks here who can suggest some inexpensive tables to go for or keep a look out for, I am not one of them. But hey, $50 isn't much and it will give you a bit of a taste.

That said, you might be better saving up for a nicer table. And you'd have two good options:

1) Get a good used table that you are confident you could sell for close to what you paid. But make sure it is in good condition. And I'd try to buy local if you take this option. If you have any vinyl knowledgeable friends who could help you check it out and/or set it up, that would also make me more comfortable with this approach (though AC members could potentially help on this from afar). Another place to potentially look for suggestions on good used tables is Audio Karma. I am a big fan of AC, but Audio Karma has a bit more of an active vintage community that might be worth tapping into.

2) Get a new entry-level table. Either locally if you have a dealer nearby. Or go through someplace like Music Direct, which has a 30 day return policy. Then if you aren't sold, you are only out the cost of shipping. So buying new doesn't mean you take a big hit. If you go thru Music Direct, I'd suggest you talk with Chris. He seems to be their vinyl guru. Tell him Roscoe sent you.

[TheChairGuy]

My journey back from digital hell and vinyl bliss occurred in 2005 and chronicled here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22636.0

I bought a $50 JVC direct drive table from ebay and laid several pounds of plast-i-clay inside. 

That was my push back to vinyl.....that lowly set up was more enjoyable by my (then) $4500 digital front end.

Now, digital has gotten a lot better and for such reasonable prices now - and prices of most tables have risen as vinyl has staged a renaissance from the near dead - so the $50 vinyl beats $4500 digital equation is not the same. 

But, throw some 5-8lbs plast-i-clay in a decent hollow bodied turntable from the 70's or 80's, carefully mount a good cartridge in there (technically raising the cost to $150 or more in total) and prepare to be gobsmacked.

 

[SET Man]

Hey!

    If this were a few years... maybe 5-7 years back. You can pick up a decent '80s table for $50 and less , get new cart like Grado or Ortofon $30-35 or so and you got a decent start.  These days $50 won't get you much to be honest.

    If you are not in a hurry than look around for older Rega. I have Planar 2 I bought back in 1997, it still work fine. Not much to go wrong with this type of manual TT. I have it in my second system now.

    And to answer you curiosity, yes LP sound better than CD.. most of the time. Not all LP album sound better than the CD version. And in fact some of the reissue LPs were cut from digital master or worst from cd by some greedy record companies.

    But if you ask me is LP worth getting in to? Definitely yes... if your table and cart are set up right, you clean and keep your LPs clean and have space for the growing LP collection. The last one is a bit of a problem for me since I in a rental apartment here in NYC 

    Not sure where you are but if you are in NYC or will be in the area, you are welcome to check out my TT and system out.

Take care,
Buddy 


   

   

[wushuliu]

Hey!

    If this were a few years... maybe 5-7 years back. You can pick up a decent '80s table for $50 and less , get new cart like Grado or Ortofon $30-35 or so and you got a decent start.  These days $50 won't get you much to be honest.

    If you are not in a hurry than look around for older Rega. I have Planar 2 I bought back in 1997, it still work fine. Not much to go wrong with this type of manual TT. I have it in my second system now.

    And to answer you curiosity, yes LP sound better than CD.. most of the time. Not all LP album sound better than the CD version. And in fact some of the reissue LPs were cut from digital master or worst from cd by some greedy record companies.

    But if you ask me is LP worth getting in to? Definitely yes... if your table and cart are set up right, you clean and keep your LPs clean and have space for the growing LP collection. The last one is a bit of a problem for me since I in a rental apartment here in NYC 

    Not sure where you are but if you are in NYC or will be in the area, you are welcome to check out my TT and system out.

Take care,
Buddy 

I feel like I got into vinyl just in time 3 yrs ago: got the Yamaha 801BL for $125 in great condition and then an SL1200 for $300 (used, should talked down on that one). It's hilarious looking at the SL1200 prices now, anywhere from $300 to $1200! Some yahoo on ebay is trying to sell a broken Philips 212 for $140! That's just insane.

[Maritan]

Thanks for all the replies folks. It looks like my best best is to go new, and take a slight $$ hit if I decide vinyl isn't for me. The Denon DP-300F is the front runner right now, especially with the apparently worthwhile upgrades that LPGear is providing with it. I have to be honest though - that Pro-Ject Carbon is just so attractive (to me). But this is all about, sound, right?

I'm in Arizona, but if I'm ever in NYC, I'll look you up SET man. Thanks for the offer though.

Now, to figure out which provides a better sound - Denon DP-300F or the Pro-Ject Carbon. I already know where Wushuliu stands on this one. 

[wushuliu]

Thanks for all the replies folks. It looks like my best best is to go new, and take a slight $$ hit if I decide vinyl isn't for me. The Denon DP-300F is the front runner right now, especially with the apparently worthwhile upgrades that LPGear is providing with it. I have to be honest though - that Pro-Ject Carbon is just so attractive (to me). But this is all about, sound, right?

I'm in Arizona, but if I'm ever in NYC, I'll look you up SET man. Thanks for the offer though.

Now, to figure out which provides a better sound - Denon DP-300F or the Pro-Ject Carbon. I already know where Wushuliu stands on this one. 

The big tradeoff between those two are cartridges they come with. The Ortofon is an established entry level cart, the LpGear is a question mark but they have a reputation for upgraded belts and high quality stylus...es...styli, whatever. What I also like about the Denon is that there's a lot of very positive feedback from actual owners on other TT forums and given your goals and budget, gives you a taste of vinyl at $40+ cheaper than a stock Pro-ject. I also put an upgraded belt above a cartridge as far as first priorities - cartridges are taste dependent and very subjective. A better belt is a better belt, period.

That's my take on the choices. In the larger scheme of tables though, they are both a far cry from the $900 tables I'm sure, which is the next tier and either one will give you a sense of what's what.

[neobop]

A great buy just appeared on Agon, a Kenwood 770D, looks mint for $250. This table was near TOTL with a slot-less motor and 9 1/2" straight arm like the Graham Robin.  It picks up at end of record.  This is the table I have my Genesis 1000 on, pictured left. All you'll need is a good cart (med/heavy arm) and add some mass inside.  I don't think it will last....

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-kenwood-kd-7700-2013-01-30-analog-08869

neo

[wushuliu]

A great buy just appeared on Agon, a Kenwood 770D, looks mint for $250. This table was near TOTL with a slot-less motor and 9 1/2" straight arm like the Graham Robin.  It picks up at end of record.  This is the table I have my Genesis 1000 on, pictured left. All you'll need is a good cart (med/heavy arm) and add some mass inside.  I don't think it will last....

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-kenwood-kd-7700-2013-01-30-analog-08869

neo

Nice...

[jarcher]

My vote is for a project carbon vs the denon.  I feel a better cartridge is more important than an upgraded belt. Lastly, even if you can't return the cartridge, it's a keeper. At this low a price you could likely resell the carbon for close to what you paid for it if you want to upgrade. At least that was my experience with an inferior project rpm 1.3.

[Maritan]

That KD770D is cartridge-less. Any suggestions on one? Least fiddle-y preferred, and on the frugal side would be great!

Wushuliu - the Kenwood over the Denon?  What's your preference?

ETA: Thanks for posting the link neobop.

[neobop]

Maritan,
The Kenwood is in another class from all the tables you're considering, but it's a vintage table and you'd have no warranty etc.  In good condition it's worth at least 3X the asking price. 5 years ago this would have been a great buy. There's a nice looking KD500 w/ADC arm on Agon for $500.  I have one of those too and I use different arms on it. It might do very deep bass, like pipe organ pedal tones, with greater authority, depending on arm/cart, but the 770 has better prat, more finesse, quartz locked speed, end of record lift that doesn't return the arm, hence no cams or mechanisms to interfere. In the old Kenwood line there is a similar table, the 950 which is virtually the same with heavier S shaped arm. You'd have to go to the LO-7D to better these. It goes for around $4K used.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-kenwood-kd500-granite-base-turn-table-2013-01-30-analog-77095-houston-tx

There's another vintage belt drive that looks sweet, for little $. I'm more familiar with a more expensive model that was like a Linn LP12.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-ariston-icon-manual-turntable-2013-01-08-analog-95219-stockton-ca

It's understandable if you want to get something new.  This is a way for you to get something better (IMO) than an entry level table. The 770 should be good with a Denon DL110 HOMC - $139. This cart was criticized on another thread for being bass deficient. I disagree. It's a moderate compliance cart and needs a med/heavy arm. I had a DL-160 and it was better on a lighter arm, but needed loading down.  The 110 sounds good at 47K with a heavier arm.  At least that's my experience.
neo 

[Maritan]

Thanks for the detailed response, Neobop. If I can snag the 770D, for $100 less than a new one, and but a good cartridge for it, I might end up with something slightly more expensive than a brand new TT, but apparently one of much better quality, especially sound-wise. I'm sold.

Also, I found a Dual 1229 for sale locally. Here's the description:

Dual 1229 Turntable ... Seems to be working fine ... EXCEPT ... I could not get the start/stop switch to function smoothly. It might be that I just don't remember how it works. The tracking, skating, speed control, etc all work fine. The Empire 4000 D/II cartridge is in the unit now. The dust cover is with the unit and is intact EXCEPT for a couple scratch/cracks in the lower back of the cover. I do not know where to look for a serial number.

Three cartridges. One is The Empire 4000 D/II,
another is the SHURE M91ED,
third is a Audio Technica AT Pro-11E
All three cartridges are in good condition.

What would you go for? The 770D or the 1229? If you think the 1229 is a better unit, how much would you offer this guy for the TT and the cartridges together?

[simoon]

What would you go for? The 770D or the 1229? If you think the 1229 is a better unit, how much would you offer this guy for the TT and the cartridges together?

In my opinion, that Kenwood is substantially better than the Dual.

Better arm, better speed stability, better isolation...