Cheap turntable to get into vinyl?

roscoeiii · « **Reply #20 on:** 31 Jan 2013, 06:33 pm »

And... the Kenwood is gone. Maritan did you end up grabbing it?

If you did, make sure the seller knows how to pack a turntable. And if he doesn't have experience doing that. Get him some very explicit instructions on how you want it packed. Folks here could probably help with turntable packing advice.

simoon · « **Reply #21 on:** 31 Jan 2013, 10:57 pm »

Not sure if you got anything yet, but this seller on ebay has 2 Yamaha TT's on sale. - http://myworld.ebay.com/edhofler?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

A PF-1000 which was their top of he line belt drive. It is quite good. It's at $362 with a little less than 2 days. It will probably go for about $500.

A PF-800 which was a step down from the PF-1000. It also has a little less than 2 days left, but it is only at $78!

wushuliu · « **Reply #22 on:** 31 Jan 2013, 11:34 pm »

Quote from: Maritan on 31 Jan 2013, 05:30 am

That KD770D is cartridge-less. Any suggestions on one? Least fiddle-y preferred, and on the frugal side would be great!

Wushuliu - the Kenwood over the Denon? What's your preference?

ETA: Thanks for posting the link neobop.

Whoops, missed the new posts. The Kenwood for sure, but I thought you were playing it safe and wanted to buy new?

Slippery slope, isn't it!

No question best bang for the buck would be vintage. One of the Yamahas listed above would be a HELL of a table. But then I've got a Yammy and I love it...

wushuliu · « **Reply #23 on:** 31 Jan 2013, 11:39 pm »

Quote from: jarcher on 31 Jan 2013, 02:37 am

My vote is for a project carbon vs the denon. I feel a better cartridge is more important than an upgraded belt. Lastly, even if you can't return the cartridge, it's a keeper. At this low a price you could likely resell the carbon for close to what you paid for it if you want to upgrade. At least that was my experience with an inferior project rpm 1.3.

This is where sensitivity to wow and flutter and pitch comes in. A better cart will only highlight those issues more, not improve on them. But some people are less bothered by that than others.

Maritan · « **Reply #24 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 12:02 am »

Good catch, Roscoeiii - that listing is gone because I snagged it.

Seller claims to have shipped turntables before and assures me that they will do a good job on this one too.

Man! This IS a slippery slope.

But, for the price, the high regard this TT is held, and apparently the great condition that it is, I couldn't pass it up. Especially since it was apparently close to the TOTL for slightly more or equal to what I would have paid for a new entry-level Denon or Pro-Ject Carbon - even with the cost of buying a new cartridge for it.

If all goes well, I will soon have the Kenwood 770D in my possession. Thanks, neobop, for pointing it out to me.

Thanks for everyone's responses. This site has been far more helpful in the few days I've been a member compared to another audiophile site that I am a member of. You guys rock!

wushuliu · « **Reply #25 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 12:05 am »

Quote from: Maritan on 1 Feb 2013, 12:02 am

Good catch, Roscoeiii - that listing is gone because I snagged it. Seller claims to have shipped turntables before and assures me that they will do a good job on this one too.

Man! This IS a slippery slope.

But, for the price, the high regard this TT is held, and apparently the great condition that it is, I couldn't pass it up. Especially since it was apparently close to the TOTL for slightly more or equal to what I would have paid for a new entry-level Denon or Pro-Ject Carbon - even with the cost of buying a new cartridge for it.

If all goes well, I will soon have the Kenwood 770D in my possession. Thanks, neobop, for pointing it out to me.

Thanks for everyone's responses. This site has been far more helpful in the few days I've been a member compared to another audiophile site that I am a member of. You guys rock!

roscoeiii · « **Reply #26 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 12:12 am »

Quote from: Maritan on 1 Feb 2013, 12:02 am

Good catch, Roscoeiii - that listing is gone because I snagged it. Seller claims to have shipped turntables before and assures me that they will do a good job on this one too.

Man! This IS a slippery slope.

If all goes well, I will soon have the Kenwood 770D in my possession. Thanks, neobop, for pointing it out to me.

Good to hear. Be sure to let us know if we can be of any additional help.

And now that the turntable is taken care of, let's talk about what else you will need in addition to a cart. Does your receiver/intergrated amp/preamp have a phono stage built in? (If so, MM only or MM & MC). If not you will need an external phono stage. You will also want to get a good brush. And eventually you will want to grab a record cleaning machine (a very good inexpensive one is the Spin Clean), but you could hold off on that as you get started—though you will be amazed how much of a sonic difference they can make.

Anything else I am forgetting on this list folks?

simoon · « **Reply #27 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 12:22 am »

Quote from: Maritan on 1 Feb 2013, 12:02 am

Good catch, Roscoeiii - that listing is gone because I snagged it. Seller claims to have shipped turntables before and assures me that they will do a good job on this one too.

Man! This IS a slippery slope.

But, for the price, the high regard this TT is held, and apparently the great condition that it is, I couldn't pass it up. Especially since it was apparently close to the TOTL for slightly more or equal to what I would have paid for a new entry-level Denon or Pro-Ject Carbon - even with the cost of buying a new cartridge for it.

If all goes well, I will soon have the Kenwood 770D in my possession. Thanks, neobop, for pointing it out to me.

Thanks for everyone's responses. This site has been far more helpful in the few days I've been a member compared to another audiophile site that I am a member of. You guys rock!

What a great snag for the price!

I agree with you, it is better than what the same $$ would get you in a new, entry level TT. Not only that, you will not lose any money on it. You will be able to sell it for your purchase price (or more) in the future.

Now, put a good cartridge on it (not sure which one you're considering), make sure you use a good alignment tool for the job (don't use the built in overhang gauge the TT comes with), and you should capture quite a bit of that vinyl magic.

simoon · « **Reply #28 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 12:32 am »

Quote from: Maritan on 29 Jan 2013, 11:57 pm

I like to listen to Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree and now am getting into jazz and fusion.

I missed this part of your post.

You seem to have some overlap with my tastes.

There are many artists in those styles with releases that have not been done on CD, or if they have, they sound like crap.

There are tons of music like you mention that is available on used vinyl. That might be the most fun part of your vinyl journey, the discovery of some of the more obscure progressive and fusion albums from the past that will blow you away!

The majority of my collection is made up of these types of music. If you want recommendations, PM me.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #29 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 01:15 am »

Don't overlook the soon-to-be-released Orbit turntable from U-turn Audio. Looks really interesting. I might even start spinning vinyl again myself...

Maritan · « **Reply #30 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 02:19 am »

Wushuliu - That's exactly how I'm feeling right now.

Can't wait to start down this path. And thanks for your input so far too.

dbCooper - I already bought the Kenwood 770D.

Simoon - Thanks for your offer. I absolutely will take you up on this.

I'm always looking to discover new stuff. I saw your post in the "audiophile quality rock thread." I'll respond there. And since you listen to similar music, I'd most definitely appreciate your input along with everyone else that has helped me on the questions below.

Roscoeiii and everybody else:

I already have a pre-amp - the TAD-150 Signature with a switchable MM/ MC pre. I've heard that it's pretty decent. Anybody have any input on that? Is it a good enough pre-amp? Reviews in general were positive for this, but there wasn't specific word on the phono section.
What cartridge? I know neobop has already suggested the DL110. Any other suggestions? Obviously it can be MM or MC (as long as the 770D will accept it) since my pre- can handle it. I don't want to get too spendy, so something that's a good value for the money would be great - at least to get me started. I can start looking at pricier stuff if I get invested enough in this.
What brush do I need to clean the records? Based on Roscoe's suggestion I looked up the Spin Clean website, and I can get that once I decide if I actually want to stick with vinyl. (Which I probably will...)

And as Roscoe asked - Anything else?

usp1 · « **Reply #31 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 02:39 am »

Maritan - So it was you who beat me out. Did you actually pay more than the asking price? Good catch...hope you like it.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #32 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 03:26 am »

Maritan,

You look like you are in good shape. I'd stick with that phono stage you have for now.

I've got a couple of MM carts I have liked, that I need to get around to selling. I will shoot you the details in a PM.

MaxCast · « **Reply #33 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 12:26 pm »

Welcome to the club, Maritan. As a newbie myself I give thanks to these vinyl lovin guys at AC.
I figure I have $525 invested in my analogue system (new and used parts) plus a couple extra carts.
The two areas I find give the most improvement are cart choice and a clean record. I listened to about 4 carts and found one that I like...for now

This assumes you have some table isolation going on and don't forget to read about adding clay - cheap.
Don't hesitate to buy a used cart in good condition from a trustworthy individual especially from different manufacturers to find the "right" sound. The spin clean with homemade cleaning solution and a small shop vac for the suck works great. Plus a discwasher at the table.

Now the biggest expense in time and money...the records. Pink Floyd is hard to find and expensive. You can research the best sounding pressingsof your favorite albums at Stevehoffmanforums and buy from discogs if you don't have a lot of record stores. Keep an eye on craigs list for used vinyl as well. I love it all. I haven't listened to my squeezebox in prolly 60 days. I have two boys that love record stores and like to clean the days haul of vinyl. Traveling to Detroit this weekend and have 2-3 shops lined up

Don't be afraid to ask questions!!

neobop · « **Reply #34 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 03:09 pm »

Maritan,
Way to go. I think you're going to like the 770. Once you have it set up and spinning, you'll probably love it. I recommended the DL-110 because of price/performance and compatibility with the arm. The arm is heavier than it looks. The headshell weighs 10.5g and eff mass is somewhere between 14 and 17g, in my estimation. This would imply best results with carts of moderate compliance. There is no provision for resonance damping so an appropriate cart is indicated. Other inexpensive choices would be LpGear AT-95SE or VL.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGAT95SE.html

http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGAT95VL.html

I like the AT-7V:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT7V.html

Here's the Denon:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDL110.html

High compliance MM/MI are not recommended. You might be able to use some, especially if they have a damping brush, but I suggest you stick with lower compliance. Down the road, this table is appropriate for many pricey MCs, most of which have moderate compliance.

As already mentioned, you're going to have lots of expenses including records and cleaning stuff, so I'm trying to help keep it reasonable. The library at Vinyl Engine has the service manual - free download. You can also get a Baerwald protractor (recommended) for alignment. Arm height adjustment is by 2 allen wrenches in the side and back of the arm base. Feel free to ask any questions.
neo

Maritan · « **Reply #35 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 04:18 pm »

USP1 - You have a PM.

Roscoeiii - Got your PM. Let me do a little looking around, just to see what's out there. I don't even know how to tell if a cartridge will work with a turntable or not.

So, I'm going to do a little reading up and I'll get back to you soon.

MaxCast - Thanks. I will definitely be looking into the clay deal. You are the second person on this thread to mention it, with TheChairGuy also mentioning it. Obviously, there's some value to this.

Neo and others:

I already downloaded the three pdf files from Vinyl Engine for this turntable - the flyer, instruction manual and the service manual.

Ok, so I need that Baerwald protractor for alignment. I assume you mean the one titled "Stupid Protractors" in Vinyl Engine that has the Baerwald and the Loefgren B on it?

Do I also need a stylus gauge (I think it's called?) - the Shure SFG-2?

What brush would you folks recommend for the vinyl? And then I'll eventually end up getting the Spin Clean if I decide to stay with vinyl.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #36 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 04:34 pm »

Quote from: Maritan on 1 Feb 2013, 04:18 pm

I don't even know how to tell if a cartridge will work with a turntable or not.

So, I'm going to do a little reading up and I'll get back to you soon.

Vinyl Engine will be a good resource for figuring out what cart will be a good match for your arm. The key factors to think about are your arm's effective mass (should be in the manual, and someone here indicated that it is pretty high) and the compliance of your cart (which a post above was mentioning).

In the Vinyl Engine Cartridge database you can click on the compliance button by the cart (and you will have a nice color coded table indicating a good match (which relates to the resonant frequency of the combo, which you ideally want somewhere between ~8-12Hz). The weight of your cart is highlighted at the appropriate column on the top of the table.

The Vinyl Engine Cart and Tonearm databases are super resources for vinyl lovers. Enjoy.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #37 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 04:36 pm »

Also, for VTF I recommend getting a cheap digital scale off eBay. I will see if I can find a link to one that would work for you. More precise than the Shure scale.

usp1 · « **Reply #38 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 04:38 pm »

Quote from: Maritan on 1 Feb 2013, 04:18 pm

Thanks. I will definitely be looking into the clay deal. You are the second person on this thread to mention it, with TheChairGuy also mentioning it. Obviously, there's some value to this.

On Neobop's suggestion I stuffed 5lbs of plasticlay ($8) in my dual cs-530. This seemed to help a lot. The sound is so much cleaner...much more air around the instruments. Worth a try but be careful not to get it into the electronics and mechanicals and avoid smudging the visual portion. I wasn't careful and had to spend half an hour getting rid of smudges on the side of the TT.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #39 on:** 1 Feb 2013, 04:46 pm »

Hmm, didn't have any luck with the VE tonearm database when trying to find your tonearm's effective mass. But you will be fine knowing that it is a high mass arm, and getting a cart that is well suited to a high mass arm.