[macmeech]

I would like to use the same drivers in a 0.75inch PE
cabinet. Is this possible?

[Al Garay]

Perhaps if you go sealed.

Al

[David Ellis]

The P.E. cabinets might work, but I have not tried them.  I must point out a few potential issues.

The P.E. cabinets are not braced to my spec.  The P.E. cabinet appears weaker due to less side-wall bracing.  The 1801 cabinet plans, and implementation will result in stronger side walls.  The result will be less cabinet flex.  The impact of this is to fold.  First, cabinet strength is directly proportional to it's ability to contain low bass resonance.  This is essential for the bass-reflex (i.e. port) system to function.  If the 40hz bass energy inside the cabinet is radiation THROUGH the cabinet walls, then this same energy will not eminate from the port.  Second, flexing cabinet walls will eminate sound energy.  If they are vibrating, the air on the outside will move and produce... sound.  This is bad.  While the P.E. cabinets MIGHT be okay, they also might have problems.  Herein there is significant subjective validity concerns.  Certainly there are commercial cabients on $3k speakers with much less mass/strength.    In this regard, the P.E. cabinets problably won't benefit from a shiny silver cone place on top of the speaker.

The P.E. cabinet is a little wider than the 1801 cabinet.  This might be okay, but I have not tried this.  I have tried narrower baffles with good success, but not wider baffles.  Hence, I cannot offer any tested input.  However, a wider baffle will lower the frequency onset and incease the baffle step response.  Theoretically the 1" wider baffle on the PE cabinet will have a very small effect, but it should be present.  I am not sure if it will be audible.   On the 1801b versus 1801F the change is not audible in most circumstances.

The volume of the P.E. cabinet is very similar to the 1801b cabinet.  I don't see much issue here.  

So.... the P.E. cabinet might work.  If you try this, please post your results in this forum.

A side note.... several years ago I was extremely anal about things being implemented as tested and developed.  While the minute details remain extremely important in some aspects they are no so important in other aspects.  I think you could "fudge" a little on the cabinet and be just fine.

Dave

[macmeech]

I think the cabinet needs more bracing. I think I can do this if I buy an unfinished cabinet. I would like to try one of the new non ferrofluid tweeters like the Vifa dual concentric and the Excel W18.

I would also like to try a Jordan JX53 full range with
The W18. Is that too far out of this world or could it be controlled by a crossover?

Any other new tweeter suggestions other than ribbons?

[David Ellis]

If there were a better tweeter or woofer, I'd be using it.

BTW, I did try the W22 and OW1F yesterday.  The results were decent.  I'll probably build a prototype with good crossover components and a solid cabinet for further evaluation.

Dave[/code]

[macmeech]

If there were a better tweeter or woofer, I'd be using it.

BTW, I did try the W22 and OW1F yesterday.  The results were decent.  I'll probably build a prototype with good crossover components and a solid cabinet for further evaluation.

Dave[/code]

Of course. One more question. Does the D'appolito configuration significantly improve upon the two way configuration?
The prototype sounds interesting. Does that go ahead of the years worth of speakers that you are behind on?
You need to sub out the cabinet business and focus on design and kits, IMO.

[David Ellis]

Of course. One more question. Does the D'appolito configuration significantly improve upon the two way configuration?

IMO, there is nothing special about the MTM configuration.  Adding another W18 woofer to the mix did improve the dynamics due to less thermal compression and less doppler distortion (IMD).  The W22 might do the same thing, but I haven't verified this yet.  Intuitively an 8" woofer and 3/4" tweeter just shouldn't work.  Intially I think it does, but my testing jig doesn't have the fidelity of my good amp/cd player.  There is a slight difference in sound quality between a Sound Blaster sound card & Kenwood amp versus my modified Anthem CD-1 & Jolida 302b.

The prototype sounds interesting.

I am not terribly enthusiastic about the prototype.  It sound the same or a little better than the 1801, but I am only guessing.  I am not sure if the effort/overhead is worth my time.  I don't know if the small improvement in sound quality warrants another product.  My time spent on this was primarily to see if it could work.  Also, I really wanted to experiment with LspCAD/LspLab and the whole modeling thing.  The software worked very well.

Does that go ahead of the years worth of speakers that you are behind on?

I did this yesterday when the boys were napping.  The click-click of the mouse and occasional music is much queter than power tools.  Ineed this project will not matriculate until long after all previous endeavors are finished.  I am kinda' skeptical the W22OW1F project will matriculate.

[David Ellis]

You need to sub out the cabinet business and focus on design and kits, IMO.

Yes, you are right.  Eventually this might happen, but only after my profit covers the cost of the cabinets.  I have about $15k of my own $ into this "hobby" that generally looses interest annually.  Over the past 4 years I have been +400 to -800  for the IRS.  I have managed to buy a few tools during this time, but the nit-noid stuff really cuts into what would otherwise be considered profits.  Router bits, sandpaper belts, catalyzed lacquer, computer firewall software etc. etc. really takes a toll.  The big chunks are the planer, jointer, dust collector, but these depreciate slowly.  The cost of business is amazing.  I am still very happy though.  How many guys have a hobby that almost breaks-even

My next chunk of "profit" will be spent on 1801 cabinets, or some 10" woofers.  The 10" woofers are more likely to happen.

[macmeech]

I want to lop? off five bottom inches from your cabinet making it 14 inches high. How will that effect your crossover?
Enjoy your vacation. My cousin has a house on Madeline Island in Lake Superior and has not been heard from all summer.

[macmeech]

There are some formulas for small business which you
can derive from making a pie chart of your business
expenses. Generally a 100% markup in a retail business gives a 10% net profit with 13% of sales going for salary. You should be making $60.00 per hour for your woodworking skills, the same as an auto mechanic. As you can see, the higher the kit price the lower the volume of sales. Nonetheless, getting the right price for less work would reduce your backlog, and remove the temptation to live on the deposits for future work. You have the option to depreciate power tools more agressively, as you have to budget for replacement costs anyway. I would treat your annual expenses as fixed operating costs when setting the gross markup for the business.

Strategically I believe you are well positioned to command marketshare because of the excellent job you did on R&D. Secondarily, you have managed to keep up with current DIY trends. This is where Parts Express, Audio Advisor, and others need to assign permanent staff.

I guess that I am saying that the kit needs to go to
$899.00 and the speakers to $300.00 each to generate $30,000 year in salary for you and your part time job.

[JD From LA]

macmeech,

I've not heard the Vifa but you can't go wrong with the OW1 as used in the 1801s.  I bought a matched pair with 92mm mounting plates (2mm smaller than usual) as direct replacements for an earlier version used in a set of Linn KANs (one of the original tweeters was damaged physically).

I've been around Hi-Fi for the last 35 years.  I sold it for a few years in the early '80s and have kept a hand in it since.  On balance, these have to be the best tweeters I've ever heard at any price.   They are so easy, revealing, and natural, yet they are flat out to about a billion Hz.

Want proof?  While listening to a live CD of Ahmad Jamal, a note was slipped under my door.  The note said, "Dude, nice speakers.  Sincerely, Fido."  What more proof do you need?  

Seriously, these tweeters are so good, they sound great when you're in another ROOM.  The only caveat being "garbage in, garbage out."  If you're using electronics best suited for arc welding or perhaps industrial metal finishing, you'll know it.

If you get a chance, give the OW1s a good listen.  If you don't like what you're hearing, change the electronics or source material.  These tweeters have no "sound" of their own.

My 2 Hz

JD From LA

[David Ellis]

I want to lop? off five bottom inches from your cabinet making it 14 inches high. How will that effect your crossover?

The effect is nil.  I accomplished this a few years ago and the results were acceptable in 16.5 liters sealed and about 15" of cabinet height.  I thought the sealed environment might be better.  Theoreticaly it has some advantages.  The downside to a sealed cabinet is the increased excursion demands on the driver.  Given the 1801, the ported cabinet really controlls excursion above the tuning frequency of the cabinet (about 34hz).  The result was the ported configuration simply sounded better.  I believe this is due less driver excursion and greater bass depth in the ported cabinet.

So, while sealed results were acceptable, musical bass is better from the ported 1801.

Thanks for the business tips.  I have considered all of this, but for now this will remain a hobby and my prices will remain very conservative.  Higher prices will likely incite the desire for immediate consumer gratification.  This is customary when customers deal with a "real" business.  Maybe EllisAudio will migrate in this direction in 6-8 years, but for now I am very happy with patient customers that understand my full-time job, and family dedication  .

I am up to speed on all the depreciation schedules and such.  My wife is a darn good CPA and tracks all this stuff.  This is a blessing! The depreciation shedules applied to my dust collector last year simply because didn't have profit.  Hence, I coudn't expense the $960 - bummer.    

Marketshare is complicated.  I am not sure that I will ever establish solid marketshare.  This requires real business, real employees.   At various career points I have been responsible for 0-40 people.  While leadership isn't awful, it's way over-rated.  I think Frank VanAlstine, Jeff Glowacki, Danny Richie and Jim Salk have very admirable business models.  Mr. VanAlstine is the most established.  At this point the idea of small business and small income is the most appealing.

As I grow older I increasingly find the very best products/services come from guys in small shops where the owner IS the business.  Finding these guys is often difficult, but very fruitful.   Sure, big business has it's place, but with many venues a small business is much better.  One of my hallmarks is... when looking for an auto mechanic, seek a shop named after a "guy".  This shop will be even better if that "guy" answers the telephone.  The coup de' grace' is when this shop has a 3-5 day wait for maintenance, and a line of broken cars awaiting work  

Thanks for your comments JD.