[brother love]

I owned a Panny XR55 AVR maybe 6-7 yrs. ago that I powered some Paradigm speakers in an HT system.  Not too shabby sounding (esp. for the money), but definitely on the dry, analytical side.

I currently own a TBI Millenia MG3 amp w/ PS upgrade & mods.  You can see my comments in the TBI Millenia thread; but I would highly recommend it, particularly given you have "revealing" speakers.

You can pick up a cheap DAC & still get really good sound (Audioquest Dragonfly you mentioned as an example. I've got a $350 Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 that also acts as a preamp). So I think it is less critical than a better amp for your system.

Of course so many variables come in to play ... your room conditions, speaker position, your listening preferences, source material, etc., etc. .

[budget minded]

i don't know what happened. i tried to reply to this thread and find the other comment in another thread i got redirected to...

he Gungnir DAC is very good, if you have decided to go with a new source. BUT, if you are going source, I'd recommend a DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0

i would HOPE a $1,000 DAC would sound better, but it's too pricey for me, and regarding lower cost DACs, i want something i won't feel the need to upgrade from once grain, or veiling etc. become apparent. if there's a DAC that's voiced more towards neutrality without too much of it ala "class A rated" benchmark that's the same price as a gungnir, i'll consider that, but that DSPeaker is fugly too. i'm trying to upgrade aesthetics a little too.

I owned a Panny XR55 AVR maybe 6-7 yrs. ago that I powered some Paradigm speakers in an HT system.  Not too shabby sounding (esp. for the money), but definitely on the dry, analytical side.

that's what i'm trying to say. it's extra nice on forgiving speakers, but RC-10s aren't forgiving. it's not a harsh sound, just a "tense" one is the adjective that seems most accurate to me, but i can get glassy too. it sounds really nice on my celestion and former mission soft domes too, and is nice with the RC-10s, but slighlty flat and lifeless. vocals are kind of papery as in lacking substance. i was never able to hear it before, or the 2 DACs that i have's sonic signatures. the panasonic also cranks really nice but i never do that unless neighbors start acting the fool and there goes a door slamming tweaker piece of crap next door just now as if to emphasize the point.

it's time to get gear up to the standards of my awesome value speakers so they stop telling me my amp's clinical and my DACs are 2 flavors of digital. within it's limitations, the panasonic can do a lot of disappearing and revealing, just a bit too much. just a little bit of sweetening in sources should do winders

[budget minded]

You can pick up a cheap DAC & still get really good sound (Audioquest Dragonfly you mentioned as an example. I've got a $350 Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 that also acts as a preamp). So I think it is less critical than a better amp for your system.

i'm familiar with that DAC and it's preamp etc. but like yulong and eastern electric, it's tube flavored which is too ripe for my tastes and an absolute last resort. i just don't go for that kind of sound. my sony has more of it than my panasonic, and i don't like it. besides, the grant isn't the last word in resolution, just a very nice entry level unit. i don't want to have to upgrade, but if i do, it's nice to have a DAC that one can incrementally upgrade with better DACs or amp stages in the future and especially from a US builder that i can also try before i buy. tight thumping bass is what i want, DEFINITELY not loose tube gluteous maximus. it's a step in the wrong direction for me. i'm not willing to give much up in the speed and detail department. just looking for more ease.

[budget minded]

hmmm... if my receiver is more of a weak link than it's DAC, it's make sense to upgrade that first, but then i'd have to to use my receiver as a DAC. LOL sony has that sound i always think of as cardboard... easy on the ears, but kind of thick and heavy in an artificial kind of way.

if i was to get a temp DAC, it'd likely be the $100 schiit model that uses the same DAC as it's siblings unless i could find an even better deal on something used for the same $100. i wouldn't want to spend any more than that on something i'd only be getting rid of ASAP.

i'm glad to see my assessment of my system's sound is pretty much on target... clinical receiver sound, and EQ flat speakers that are nice and revealing... the kind you'd want for studio monitors in particular. they don't sweeten clinical the same way soft domes do.

anyone know of any stellar coax DAS around $100?

i still have low power dayton and sure electronics class D amp modules i should probably try as a potential free upgrade, and in a pinch, my paradigm x-over can serve as a pre-amp.

[brother love]

i'm familiar with that DAC and it's preamp etc. but like yulong and eastern electric, it's tube flavored which is too ripe for my tastes and an absolute last resort. i just don't go for that kind of sound ...

The Grant Fidelty TubeDac-11 is a swiss army knife.  You can bypass the tube if preferred, but that isn't the point.  I just gave it as an example of a cheaper DAC/ preamp combo that garners very good results.

IMO going w/ the TBI Millenia MG3 is the best bet initially to compliment your rig.  The DAC options, esp. on the used market, offer up a more economical cheap & cheerful solution beyond your  "either/ or" current budget choice.

Good luck  w/ your decision.

[budget minded]

You can pick up a cheap DAC & still get really good sound (Audioquest Dragonfly you mentioned as an example.

USB is totally a non-option as i refuse to get my noisy PC involved in my home system. and DAC i get will have to do co-axial

i think upgrading the amp first makes the most sense now, especially as someone with similar speakers has already made the same upgrade for the same reasons and liked it. besides, it will give me a better chance to hear the sound of my receiver's DAC which seems very fast and detailed with razor sharp imaging. it might be a better synergy, and it would let me use the receiver as a switching preamp too for my TV whose tosilink out doesn't seem to work

[wisnon]

Budget,

Did you check out teh nuforce DDA-100 PowerDac. 50WPC integrated with digital input only and its a PWM Dac to boot.
2 birds with one stone, vinyl need not apply.

[fredgarvin]

I use that Panny for HT, it sounds much better with the coaxial digital in from the source rather than rca cables. Then of course, there is no need for an external  DAC since it's direct digital. Which makes me think you are using the rca cables from the source. If so, try using the coaxial instead and see if it helps you.

[budget minded]

Did you check out the nuforce DDA-100 PowerDac. 50WPC integrated with digital input only

that's not a very good option as that would rule out listening to my TV. with the MG3, i could always put my TV's line outs onto a 1/8" stereo splitter and just manually plug it in to the front inputs. it's an ugly solution, but it would work. i don't think nuforce is the best option either. it got KOed in a digital amp shootout, along with my panasonic, with the trends amp winning, and that is easily surpassed by kingrex, which is itself surpassed by the MG3 which has to be the best bang for the buck in amplification at the moment. i remember reports of nuforce having a dry digital sound too. that's why i'm liking the MG3, it's more liquid and organic sounding than most class D amps, even winning over tube amp owners. if anyone's going to hate a clinical solid state sound, it will be a tube lover.

I use that Panny for HT, it sounds much better with the coaxial digital in from the source rather than rca cables. Then of course, there is no need for an external  DAC since it's direct digital. Which makes me think you are using the RCA cables from the source. If so, try using the coaxial instead and see if it helps you.

first off, a lot of people are confused about class D amps because they're called "digital switching" and think they're like DACs. what they do is stream pulses of power at something like 400,000Hz, at least in one design, and vary the width of those pulses according to how much power is needed, the longer the pulse, the higher the current a speaker sees. it's a very different system from digital encoding and i would imagine the "pulse conversion" takes place in the analogue domain regardless of whether an amp has a DAC or not.

i do use my panasonic's onboard DAC with coaxial in now though and do slightly prefer the speed and detail even if it's dry and clinical sounding, but i could see many preferring the softer and easier on the ears sound of my sony's onboard DAC via RCA. each sound has it's merits. the sony gives more weight to vocals.

back when i had NHT superzeros, i actually preferred the sound of my sony DAC over the receiver's internal one, probably because it's diffuse imaging makes things sound larger, but the difference was very hard to hear on those speakers where it's clear as day now on my RC-10s.

[wisnon]

No Budget,

This is a totally new nuforce and apparently MUCH better than the version that lost in the Mojo shootout years back. It won the TAS award for best entry level amp in 2012.

I LOVE the TBI, as I have one, just giving you options. Sounds like the TBI s right for you.

[budget minded]

i'll have to look for the new and improved nuforce review then. i like to keep informed about the current state of audio even if i'll never own most of the gear. it's looking like class D in general is slowly starting to improve as the technology gets embraced more and the issues like power supply noise in particular with class D get addressed.

right now i'm looking into test driving the tour MG3 to see just how much it improves my system's sound. nothing beats an in home demo. maybe i can find a dirt cheap analogue to digital converter i can use to turn the DAC i want into a switcher even if it adds distortion. TV isn't exactly a critical listening source anyways.

it's too bad that even in kit form the hypex ncore modules are so expensive. those are sounding almost like the last word in class D amplification, but then again, the MG3 is supposed to be sweeter sounding in comparison which is what my system really needs at the moment anyways.

[budget minded]

the new nuforce is just 10wpc, a little more clinical than i'm after, MG3 has a little warmth, but it is a good deal if you're willing to settle on a closed system that you have to upgrade twice as DAC or amp. it looks like it's especially good for PC systems though. i already have clinical sound with ruthlessly revealing flat speakers. i'm hoping to inject just a little bit of warmth with both the MG3 & gungnir which don't stray far from detail and neutrality. tubes aren't much of an option for me, especially without an air conditioner.

maybe i'll re-case the MG3 with a high quality step attenuator the same value as whatever bargain pot is used. turning  it into a dual monoblock with the same power rating is a bit much. i'd DIY a battery powered ncore integrated before that.

[budget minded]

for $15, the original sonic impact has to be in the top 10 audio bargains of all time though. it could sound a little warm on batteries. it distorted gracefully until you fry it's 8wpc cranking 85dB minis outdoors though.

[wisnon]

the new nuforce is just 10wpc, a little more clinical than i'm after, MG3 has a little warmth, but it is a good deal if you're willing to settle on a closed system that you have to upgrade twice as DAC or amp. it looks like it's especially good for PC systems though. i already have clinical sound with ruthlessly revealing flat speakers. i'm hoping to inject just a little bit of warmth with both the MG3 & gungnir which don't stray far from detail and neutrality. tubes aren't much of an option for me, especially without an air conditioner.

maybe i'll re-case the MG3 with a high quality step attenuator the same value as whatever bargain pot is used. turning  it into a dual monoblock with the same power rating is a bit much. i'd DIY a battery powered ncore integrated before that.

No, the DDA-100 is 50wpc into 8 ohms. with dynamic headroom of 130wpc in short bursts.

[budget minded]

i was reading reviews for the $550 icon, i believe it was called. i'll look up the DDA-100, but still, a closed digital only system isn't ideal for my needs.


OK... finally found the edit button... it's in the top corner where you wouldn't expect to find it, and called modify. go figure. the DDA-100 is a terrible choice for me reading the 6moons review as it does digital truncation at low levels and virtually all of my listening is at conversational levels. that's one of the reasons i'm trying so hard to find gear that emphasizes low level resolution. it wouldn't surprise me at all if my current system sounded better cranked up as i was able to get some really clean sound cranking my m71s in the past.

all these reviews that talk about "WAF" of gear never seem to mention neighbor approval factor. gosh golly do i ever hate apartment living!

update:
i just did some repositioning of my speakers yesterday to bring them closer together, double check rear and side wall distances, and maybe push them back half a foot, and a lot of the previous hard edge sound is gone. maybe i was having a phase issue  i'm getting a much warmer acceptable sound i can live with now. maybe there was a standing wave problem. it's amazing how just a few inches worth of speaker placement can make such a difference. as expected, the center image really solidified too which was my main goal.