[abongiov]

It seems to me that Benchmark DAC-1 has been a reference DAC for a few years already. And people always says it is a fast moving technology, so I would think that something like a Peachtree DAC-it or a Schiit bifrost, both recent compare to the Benchmark DAC-1 should be as good or VERY close. Nevertheless, review always put the Benchmark on top in terms of soundstage and bass control. So is it better to buy an older more expansive design than a newer cheapest one ?
Then is it really moving fast ?

I have no need for pre-amp, headphone, USB, iPod dock or balanced output.
I am not much of a Tube guy but I keep an open mind.

Ideally I'd like a DAC with two Toslink input. Sources will be airport express for music (mostly ALAC) and Roku XD for movie (Not interested in HT so I use my 2 Ch). I could do only with one input if I use PLEX on my roku to read the itunes library.

System is integrated amp Creek Evolution 2 (2x75W into 8 ohms) feeding Salks SongTower RT. Type of music Rock, Blues, Jazz, Accoustics and not very often classical.
Budget is sub $1000, which is HUGELY populated.
The only DAC I have tried so far (in my system) is an AVA T8 Dac. Sounds nice but compare to my CDP (Creek Evo 2) I found I am losing some bass and soundstage depth. It is enjoyable but I would like better soundstage dpeth and tighter bass.

In addition to the Bifrost, DAC-it and Benchmark, on my radar I have PS Audio Nuwave, W4S DAC-1 (also older design). WAF is important so that is bad for the Benchmark and W4S.

And you all know that lists could be 3x times longer, and I am sure you'll have other suggestion.
Of course, there is also the option of going for a DAC-integrated amp, like the Peachtree Nova125.
I liked the concept of Nuforce DDA-100, and cheap enough that I wanted to try but feared that 2x50W per channel is too low for the Songtower (88db into 6 Ohms). Nuforce customer service confirmed it  is probably not enough and preferred to be honest than having me sending it back right away. I appreciate their honesty and willingness not to deceive potential customers.
NAD CD390 seems great but a little too expensive for me.

So back to my original question, is it better to buy a used older design or a new less expensive one ?

[geowak]

I am sure others here at AC will chime in with their opinions, here is mine.

DAC's are evolving, just like everything else. It seems faster, but I don't really know.

I have both The Benchmark USB DAC1 and the Schiit Bifrost. I like them both and believe I am getting HQ sound from both. My impression is that the Benchmark is more refined and does more than the Bifrost. It should because it cost me nearly 3X the cost of the Bifrost.

The Benchmark can be used very well as a preamp. It also has a very decent headphone amp. It has variable and fixed gain. The Bifrost has none of these features. The Benchmark is more neutral and clean sounding, some would call this clinical. At any rate, I like this sound.
The Bifrost is more lively, more musical sounding. So by default, it has a colored sound. But really, not too much color. The Bifrost is a hook it up and forget it. The Benchmark is more adjustable, tunable, flexible.

On the other hand, Schiit Audio has offered to upgrade the boards in the Bifrost as they become available. I think DAC chips will advance and you have the option of just getting an upgrade to your Bifrost, rather than buy an all new DAC.

The better comparison would be the Gungnir DAC and the Benchmark. But I have not heard the Gungnir, so I cannot say it it's better.

Also many other manufacturers are making DACs. I think you alluded to this. There will be many good ones. I think W4S and Bryston make a good one, as do Musical Fidelity and Benchmark has a new DAC, the DAC2 HGC for 2K. I like the Bryston BDA-2 and the Benchmark DAC2 HGC for the money.

[abongiov]

Thanks Geowak,

It's what I am saying, Bifrost cost 3x times but is only a DAC, no preamp, no headphone amp and is more recent by maybe 1.5 to 2 years. If it is evolving so fast, shouldn't we expect at least the same level of performance ?
But still you say the Benchmark is more refine.
I only need a DAC so the Bifrost covers my need but it seems the Benchmark is still slightly better.
I can afford the Gungnir and I know there a numerous other choices but I am puzzled by all the reviews stating, for the price this sub $500 DAC (bifrost, DAC-it...) is amazing...but in the end most of them says than more expensive and older design are better.

I appreciate your info on those two.

[Elizabeth]

Welll i am not so keen on buying the latest and greatest.
I own a 12 year old DAC (ancient.. really) and love it. I bought a new DAc $2,300  which was rated class A/ best  by both TAS and Stereophile...
Nope. My old Adcom was just as good.
So I was lucky i could return the new DAC.
So IMO all this talk about new DACs etc being so great.. Not in my opinion.
Maybe when some $200 DAC is as good as the dCS stack... Until then i will keep my current old DAC.

(Naturally your experience may vary. I have thought perhaps I have a particularly great copy of the GDA700??)

[Stu Pitt]

I think too many people fall for the hype of how quickly DAC technology is moving.  In my experience, the newer ones are better, if all else is equal (which I'll elaborate on), but it's not a night and day or light years ahead thing by any means IMO.

USB implementation has moved forward quite a bit in the short time it's been embraced.  High-res capability and asynch have been big improvements.

Clocking and jitter reduction have helped things sound a lot better too.

Taking USB off the table, I find that a very good older DAC won't get embarrassed by the average new DAC.  There's more to a great sounding DAC than the chips.  Powe supply and output stages make a very big difference.  I have an old Theta Cobalt DAC that I bought a few years ago when I first bought my Apple TV gen 1.  The DAC was about 15 years old at the time I bought it, and it was bought just to see if I wanted to move away from CDs.

I auditioned a ton of "giant killers" and some more expensive DACs against it in my home.  The alleged giant killers didn't stand up to it at all - MF V-DAC, DAC Magic, etc.  the Benchmark DAC-1 was better, but more different sounding to my ears and not the upgrade I thought it should be for the money.

I'm not trashing the new stuff at all.  Especially if USB is a priority.  Too many people have the idea that a current $300 DAC will trounce a 15 year old $1k DAC (at the time).  All I have to say is come over and hear it for yourself.  There's nothing old or outdated sounding about my old DAC.

I upgraded to a Rega DAC about 2 years ago.  It is a genuine upgrade, but it's not like the Theta is embarrassed by it by any means.  A well made DAC with a good power supply and output stage (not a wall-wart and op-amps, among other things) will hold its own, no matter how old it is.  There probably exceptions to this, but they're few and far between.

If you're into hi-res through USB, get a new DAC.  If you're going rebook through coax or toslink, don't fall for the hype. 

[doug s.]

i am w/liz, (and stu), on this one.  my modded art di/o, over 10 years old, has gone toe-to-toe w/warious more modern digital systems, from $2k to $8k.  it easily held its own.  (use of an isolation transformer - one for dac and one for transport - is key, imo.)  and this is a dac that retailed for something like $200-$250 when it was new.  modding it yourself would add $100-$200 in cost, or if you got one from somewhere like bolder cables, the total cost might be triple the retail cost.  still a bargain, and still competitive w/anything else out there, imo. 

of course, i am speaking only of 16 bit 44.1khz digital.  i have little experience w/other digital formats.

ymmv,

doug s.

ps - regarding the benchmark dac, (at least the early iterations), i have heard of several folks who prefer a modded di/o to that.  i think w/redbook, any quality dac is simply "different", not necessarily "better" - there's only so much blood you can suck from a stone...)

[wisnon]

Do you guys compare the vintage stuff to say a Calyx Femto Dac, CAD, The Invicta or a Total Dac?

Or the boutique tube Dacs like PDX, Killer Dac, Ten Audio Tad-1, Lampizator L4, Modwright Oppo, etc?

[doug s.]

Do you guys compare the vintage stuff to say a Calyx Femto Dac, CAD, The Invicta or a Total Dac?

Or the boutique tube Dacs like PDX, Killer Dac, Ten Audio Tad-1, Lampizator L4, Modwright Oppo, etc?

this is the best system i compared my dac to.  (mebbe alreaady outdated?    ):
EA modded Northstar 192 DAC, EA Pace Car with Tascam 144 for 24/96, Bolder modified SB2, Northstar transport asynched to Pace-car.

there is only one redbook player i am even remotely interested in checking out, but its cost is still prohibitive - the nova physics memory player 64.  this is the only gear that seems it might actually do something different than simply beating the same old redbook dead horse...

doug s.

[wisnon]

Hmmm, same person that put me on to the NP Mem. player also topped me off to the Femto Dac.

Other point, the Mem player has ordinary hardware and extraordinary software. Imagine that software with the likes of the Calyx. Yum, yum.