[JackD]

I have followed your threads on both forums and I think what you have gleaned is that it is all personal preference and nothing else.  I prefer the high end vintage and some prefer the new and I like Neobop have owned both.  We all have made our choices based on what we think is best.  The only people I know of that have the ability to try both as the result of their occupations would be Tonepub, Fremer and Art Dudley and they haven't chimed in yet and probably won't. So you are left to draw you own conclusions just as I and others have.

[wushuliu]

I have followed your threads on both forums and I think what you have gleaned is that it is all personal preference and nothing else.  I prefer the high end vintage and some prefer the new and I like Neobop have owned both.  We all have made our choices based on what we think is best.  The only people I know of that have the ability to try both as the result of their occupations would be Tonepub, Fremer and Art Dudley and they haven't chimed in yet and probably won't. So you are left to draw you own conclusions just as I and others have.

I've gleaned that an Audiomod tonearm kit and a <$500 table to mount is a good place to start.

[TONEPUB]

I think it depends on the table....

I just picked up a beautifully restored Thorens TD-125 from Dave at Vinyl Nirvana.  Added an $800 SME 3009 arm, rebuilt and recabled by Alfred at SMEtonearms.com  As an approximately $2000 combination, I'd say it stands up very favorably to something like a Rega RP6, VPI Traveler, or Clearaudio Concept (all slightly less, I know)

Comparing them side by side with the TD-125/SME, would fill a (future) article.  Stock, the SME3009 and TD-125 are pretty dark sounding, but a little TLC and this is definitely a formidable combination.

I also have a mid-80s vintage Linn LP-12 that needed nothing more than a suspension tune up and a little elbow grease.  I bought this at an estate sale for about $500.  It certainly far exceeds anything I could buy new for $1000.

I've also got a vintage TD-124, purchased from one of the AC members for about $1200 (without arm) Put another SME 3009 on that table, and again for about 2 grand a really nice table, but again, it will be much better once upgraded with the Swissonor bits.

I'm a pretty big fan of some of the Denon DD tables too.  A super clean one can be had for about 5-6 hundred bucks and it compares very favorably with something like a new Rega RP3.

I'd have to say part of it boils down to style too.  I just love the vintage tables, even though I have quite a few new ones too.  At least in my experience, there are some good used tables in the $1000 - $2000 range that perform on par or sometimes even a little better than what you can buy new for $3k, but they are going to need some repair/refurb.  It's kind of like buying a vintage car, will you enjoy the journey and can you do some of the work yourself, saving the labor costs?  not to mention its always cool to use something you've restored.

And there is the factor that you can just go to your dealer and buy a VPI Classic 1 whenever you feel like it, but you might hunt for a year to get a super clean TD-124 and then another month or two to have it restored to your liking...   Depends on if that's your cup of tea or not.

Last but not least, the $1500 - $3000 range of new tables is getting fiercely competitive.  The Rega RP6, Clearaudio Concept, Funk LSD, VPI's traveler and classic all offer major performance for the money.

[vortrex]

Tonepub - have you ever played with an Amadeus?  I've never seen you mention them before.

[neobop]

At this point I interpret most of the answers to equal 'we don't know', which is fine. I have gleaned enough from posts here and there and at Akarma to reach my own conclusions. This is not a question that requires the least bit of zen.

Your initial question requires quite a bit of qualification for a meaningful answer. All things are never equal.

"

I've gleaned that an Audiomod tonearm kit and a <$500 table to mount is a good place to start.

I think that's about right, but you posted pics of a couple of vintage Yamahas and talked about a DP-59L. They're quite a different proposition. There might be a few decent arms less than the audiomod kit, depending on what cart you plan to use.  It will probably be harder to find a good table less than $500. Dealers snatch them up, put an old arm on, and sell them for big bucks. There's an SP15/MMT w/fancy wood base on Audiogon now for $1250. That's what I was going to pay for an SP10 MK2 a couple of yrs ago.
I have a few tables that take seperate arms.  It helps if you can make armboards and do minor repairs.  The table is more important than the arm. As I was trying to tell you, decently priced tables with or without arms, are getting rare. Good luck to whoever is doing this. Maybe they can luck into a private sale.
neo

[wushuliu]

Your initial question requires quite a bit of qualification for a meaningful answer. All things are never equal.

"
I think that's about right, but you posted pics of a couple of vintage Yamahas and talked about a DP-59L. They're quite a different proposition. There might be a few decent arms less than the audiomod kit, depending on what cart you plan to use.  It will probably be harder to find a good table less than $500. Dealers snatch them up, put an old arm on, and sell them for big bucks. There's an SP15/MMT w/fancy wood base on Audiogon now for $1250. That's what I was going to pay for an SP10 MK2 a couple of yrs ago.
I have a few tables that take seperate arms.  It helps if you can make armboards and do minor repairs.  The table is more important than the arm. As I was trying to tell you, decently priced tables with or without arms, are getting rare. Good luck to whoever is doing this. Maybe they can luck into a private sale.
neo

I'm not sure I can qualify my question any more than I have. In fact based on most of the responses I don't think it would matter if I did. The pics I provided were just examples and I implied as such and I included tonearms as a factor in the OP. I understand what you are saying about availability and it's noted.

[neobop]

I'm not sure I can qualify my question any more than I have. In fact based on most of the responses I don't think it would matter if I did. The pics I provided were just examples and I implied as such and I included tonearms as a factor in the OP. I understand what you are saying about availability and it's noted.

Your question is too general for a simple answer.  You can qualify it further with specific examples. You seem to think that performance on a 20 or 30 year old table should be the same as new.  I was trying to run down some of the considerations.  Sorry I got involved.
neo

[wushuliu]

Your question is too general for a simple answer.  You can qualify it further with specific examples. You seem to think that performance on a 20 or 30 year old table should be the same as new.  I was trying to run down some of the considerations.  Sorry I got involved.
neo

Please understand, I hear what you've been saying. My grumpiness is not aimed at you. My question is clearly not answerable except by a few and that's fine. I've already thrown out the Yamahas as examples and the Audiomod arm as an example. It's obvious most folks just have not made this kind of direct comparison and that's okay. I've gotten enough replies here and AK to form my own thoughts.

This is why I like to do search-only when it comes to gear for the most part because when it comes to asking questions the downside of the internet is the unfailing ability of most threads to somehow use the OP as just a starting point for veering off. At least when searching prior threads I can weed through what someone else tried to figure out.

[TONEPUB]

Tonepub - have you ever played with an Amadeus?  I've never seen you mention them before.

Can't get Well Tempered in for review.  The importer does not deem us worthy.  Been asking for
about six years, gave up.  Really odd, considering the tables we've had in.

Too bad, I've always been interested in the tables.

[toxteth ogrady]

With a little diy, I think it's possible. Take a visit to Lencoheaven to see some of the tables built for under $1000. You'll find quite a few examples of <$1k builds outperforming some big name decks. You can also check Arthur Salvatore's site for some comparisons between his Lenco and more high end tables.

[wushuliu]

With a little diy, I think it's possible. Take a visit to Lencoheaven to see some of the tables built for under $1000. You'll find quite a few examples of <$1k builds outperforming some big name decks. You can also check Arthur Salvatore's site for some comparisons between his Lenco and more high end tables.

Thanks I'll check that out.

[neobop]

Please understand, I hear what you've been saying. My grumpiness is not aimed at you. My question is clearly not answerable except by a few and that's fine. I've already thrown out the Yamahas as examples and the Audiomod arm as an example. It's obvious most folks just have not made this kind of direct comparison and that's okay. I've gotten enough replies here and AK to form my own thoughts.

This is why I like to do search-only when it comes to gear for the most part because when it comes to asking questions the downside of the internet is the unfailing ability of most threads to somehow use the OP as just a starting point for veering off. At least when searching prior threads I can weed through what someone else tried to figure out.

I didn't want to make this any more tedious than it has become, but I think your assumptions are flawed.  How can you tell opinion/preference from fact, and determine sample to sample performance variations on a 30 year old mechanical device if you have no frame of reference?

Almost every post was about your initial question. Tonepub is well versed in performance of current offerings and gave good answers. I'm pretty well versed in vintage offerings, but my familiarity with new, is limited.  The best vintage stuff goes for nearly the same price as when new. I have/had a couple of arms that were $1K in the '80s. Used, they go for around $900 now. That's maybe 1/3 $ of the modern equivalent, but does it perform as new and is it appropriate?
Some people love old idlers but some are rumble boxes and a new idler wheel only reduces the rumble. The cult ones will be priced way outside sanity. Maybe a variety of opinions is appropriate.
Good luck again to whoever is getting this.

Zen is very appropriate for redirecting the way you look at things, and for change.
neo

 

[wushuliu]

I didn't want to make this any more tedious than it has become, but I think your assumptions are flawed.  How can you tell opinion/preference from fact, and determine sample to sample performance variations on a 30 year old mechanical device if you have no frame of reference?

Almost every post was about your initial question. Tonepub is well versed in performance of current offerings and gave good answers. I'm pretty well versed in vintage offerings, but my familiarity with new, is limited.  The best vintage stuff goes for nearly the same price as when new. I have/had a couple of arms that were $1K in the '80s. Used, they go for around $900 now. That's maybe 1/3 $ of the modern equivalent, but does it perform as new and is it appropriate?
Some people love old idlers but some are rumble boxes and a new idler wheel only reduces the rumble. The cult ones will be priced way outside sanity. Maybe a variety of opinions is appropriate.
Good luck again to whoever is getting this.

Zen is very appropriate for redirecting the way you look at things, and for change.
neo

 

I've already moved on and found the information I needed elsewhere.

[TONEPUB]

Neo has an excellent point.  The TD-124's and Garrards can be made to sound really good and it's definitely a different sonic signature, but by the time you're done, you could have bought an SME, AVID or some other high performance current day table.  Just depends on what you enjoy!

[Delta Wave]

Some of us like the older decks because we're really into DIY and thoroughly enjoy modifying and restoring old decks and is also more within our budget.  Would I mess with a new $3000 deck? No way. Would I turn down a $$$$ new deck? Nope.   

[Berndt]

Still see empires on ebay for 250 $.
That leaves enough room for a used sme tonearm.