[JakeLA]

I have the same Emotiva amp as the OP on my MMGs.  I've been thinking about putting tubes on them also, so a friend brought over an Antique Sound Lab amp, a big honking thing with a bunch of EL34s.  I think it was 120 watts in pentode mode.  It still seemed soft compared to the Emotiva.  When we tried it in triode mode, forget it.   And this is an amp that costs five or six times what the MMGs cost.  I'm starting to think that if one wants to be sensible about MMGs, SS is the way to go.  Unless you can get a powerful tube amp for cheap or have one just sitting around the house, thatis. 

[rollo]

  Si senor. Current Maggies like current. Powerfull tubed amps unfortunately cost big bucks. Check out CJ, Plinius, Classe, AVA and Parasound used SS designs.


charles

[medium jim]

And the fight continues, funny thing, the OP specifically asked that it not and only wanted advice on which tube amp(s) would work.  Moreover, many who have experience with tube amps and Maggie's gave the OP several candidates.

Jim

[Davey]

"Maggie's like current."  I'm so tired of that cliche'.  The reason Maggie's need lots of power is because they're inefficient speakers....and they're low impedance speakers.  By definition current requirements will be high.  If a lower-powered tube amp is not able to deliver the required current to the load then it's power is drooping.
It's not a matter of "liking" it's simply a requirement.

"Tube watts versus solid-state watts" is another annoying cliche'.  If a person wants to label some subjective part of the sound to tube operation, that's fine, but watts is watts.  If it's a low-powered amp that's sounding good, but it's soft-clipping much of the time, then it's not providing the same wattage to the load as a properly sized amp would.

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

And them liking current is also cliche.  For more than a decade, Magnepan exhibited with AR75 & AR76's.  This is one case where I disagree with you Davey.  It was the same advice that derailed me for several years.  Do the math and one will see that 70 watts would drive nicely a low impedance 85db speaker.  Tube amps are voltage and SS current..this is why SS crap out and tubes don't.

As for Rclark's argument that he couldn't get more than 80db before clipping his 85watt SS amp? Are you kidding me? 

A 85db eff speaker would produce 85db spl at 1meter...79db @3meters.  At 2 watts add 3db, at 4 watts add another 3db...so at most listening positions, it would take only 4 watts to achieve 85db of spl.  At 32watts it would be 94db spl...but that is from each speaker and in the sweet spot add another 3db for the coupling of both speakers, so it would be 97db spl in the listening position at only 32 watts from a 85db eff speaker.

Most Maggie's are around 87db eff... Then add a sub or more and become even more efficient. 

Jim

[Maritan]

Dang. This thread lit UP! 

I didn't know this was such a touchy subject. I have to be honest. The only reason I haven't jumped on the VTLs that SteveFord linked is because they're sooooo old. I'm sure some of the caps etc. will need replacement soon, which adds to the cost of the whole affair.

Davey's suggestion of pocketing the money for the eventual move to the MG12 or 1.7s is very valid. It's definitely the sensible decision, but once we get into this hobby, I'm not sure we all make sensible, rational decisions all the time.

Keep the discussion going, you guys.  I'll let you know what I do in the end. 

[Davey]

Jim,

Tubes are essentially voltage amplification devices, and solid-state devices are generally current amplification devices.  It's fairly simple, but there are some wrinkles in various designs.  Anyways, let's not forget there's a transformer between the output vacuum tubes and the load.  What is that transformers primary job? 

Regardless, the speakers don't give a hoot about what "type" of "power" is driving them.  They're simply responding to the power applied and they don't take on any magical properties depending upon the type of watts.  If a 85 watt rated tube amp sounds completely different than an 85 watt rated SS amp, what can we conclude from that?
The answer is we can't conclude anything.  One or the other may not be living up to its ratings.....one may have quite a bit higher distortion (maybe pleasing distortion).....one may have quite a bit higher output impedance.....one may have whatever.....

Regardless, the OP was/is looking for a "budget" tube amplifier that can drive the speakers to reasonably loud volumes.  My only point was that he already had said amplifier.....except it wasn't a tube amp. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[geowak]

The OP is free to get a SS amp or a tube amp, so there really is no need to get into wars or fights over what he should do. I think he wanted a tube amp. And I think he can get it, but my experience has been that you you will need to get more quality watts and of the quality tube amps out there, you will pay more money. ARC
has never been about affordability. Two powerful mono tube amps are available and one is free to have 8k in amps and $600 in MMG speakers.
No problem here at all....

[Ericus Rex]

"Tube watts versus solid-state watts" is another annoying cliche'.  If a person wants to label some subjective part of the sound to tube operation, that's fine, but watts is watts.  If it's a low-powered amp that's sounding good, but it's soft-clipping much of the time, then it's not providing the same wattage to the load as a properly sized amp would.

Dave.

I suggest you read Bruce Rozenblit's new book on tube circuits and design.  He explains why tube watts and solid state watts aren't the same, and backs it up with solid electrical science.

Upon thinking a bit more about the VTLs versus the Rogue Stereo 90 for your application I think the Rogue would be the better choice.  The KT88 tube (standard in the Rogue), IMO, would be a better sonic match for the Maggies over the EL34 - larger sounding with more fullsome bass.  The Rogue should also be more fast and punchy than the VTL.  More so if you then upgrade it with KT120s.  Other bonuses over the VTL: half the space, half the tubes, half the outlets, the Rogue is a current model, I can't say for sure but it looks like the VTLs are cathode-bias which means you should only use matched quads in it - the Rogue is fixed bias so you can use mismatched tubes without any problem (fixed bias also sounds better by most accounts).  The only other brands of amps I can think of in your price range and around 100 watts are vintage and they may be a bit of a headache.

[medium jim]

The OP is free to get a SS amp or a tube amp, so there really is no need to get into wars or fights over what he should do. I think he wanted a tube amp. And I think he can get it, but my experience has been that you you will need to get more quality watts and of the quality tube amps out there, you will pay more money. ARC
has never been about affordability. Two powerful mono tube amps are available and one is free to have 8k in amps and $600 in MMG speakers.
No problem here at all....

Well said for the most part, I hate the pissing contests as both will work.  The VTL'S are a bargain, even if a couple of caps are in the making. My tube monoblocks don't care about the impedance, just hook them up to the 4ohm taps and that is true with any decent tube amp.  I agree that good iron is expensive, unless you find a good used amp such as the VTL'S.

Jim

[Davey]

I suggest you read Bruce Rozenblit's new book on tube circuits and design.  He explains why tube watts and solid state watts aren't the same, and backs it up with solid electrical science.

How about if the load were not a speaker and there was no subjective aspect to the comparison?  Maybe some sort of dummy load with precision instrumentation to evaluate the source under a wide variety of conditions.  Are tube watts and solid-state watts still different then? 

Cheers,

Dave.

[Rclark]

I have the same Emotiva amp as the OP on my MMGs.  I've been thinking about putting tubes on them also, so a friend brought over an Antique Sound Lab amp, a big honking thing with a bunch of EL34s.  I think it was 120 watts in pentode mode.  It still seemed soft compared to the Emotiva.  When we tried it in triode mode, forget it.   And this is an amp that costs five or six times what the MMGs cost.  I'm starting to think that if one wants to be sensible about MMGs, SS is the way to go.  Unless you can get a powerful tube amp for cheap or have one just sitting around the house, thatis.

 Like I was saying, I wouldn't put less than 2-300 watts on them. They take lots of power and clip amps on anything under 100 watts. It's just a fact. Another thing I can vouch for is bass control over the planar panel is out of this world, with good SS amps. It has been said tubes just can't match that.

 Maggies are not a low powered tube speaker. Whoever said they were was misled. You guys underpowering your even larger panels with small amps must REALLY be missing out.

 

[rollo]

   The suggestions I was making were from hands on experience with Maggies and different amps.. Personally I perfer tubed amplification with them but that's me. My suggestions for less expensive SS amps is the cost of such.
    For our Maggies the Audio Research DR 250 servo Mk2 was the King. Today to equal that amp from AR would be $40,000. A used DR 250 is around $3500 and about $2500 to re tube. Oye !!
      When a Class "D" amp of say 1000W into 4 Ohm  like the Arion hybrid monoblocks is heard with the Maggies you will be challenged to find a tubed amp with as much balls. If you do it will cost an arm and leg.
       Geez our AR Classic 60 drove the Maggies fine however the more powerful amps were preferred. There is no magic bullet. If you can try a tubed and SS amp with the same wattage and then decide.
     Not here for debate of which is better just offering alternatives for the OP to consider. If it were me a tubed preamp and SS amp. Is it right for everyone ? NO. Trying never hurts we learn from trial and error. Hopefully the posters are being helpful and not with agenda.
     No arguements for me just suggestions to consider.


charles

[medium jim]

I have no problem lighting up my Maggies with less than 100watts of tube bliss and get all the dynamics, detail, imaging that I could hope for...I also have a SS amp that has been serviced and upgraded over the years that is well over 400 watts per channel in 4 ohm and it doesn't light them up the same, albeit it can get a bid louder.   I've also owned a Bryston 4B, a Parasound that was around 300 in 4ohm and while they were very good and I could easily adapt to them, I always go back to the underpowered tube amp....

Jim

[Mr. Orange]

I'm using a TAD-60 right now to power my Magnestand MG12s with no problems. I've got plenty of sound coming out of them from low to high. You can run Maggies with a tube amp with NO problems!

[Maritan]

Interesting Mr. Orange. What kind of music do you listen to? Do you listen to the TAD-60 in UL or Triode mode?

If I can find an unmolested TAD-60 or TAD-1000 I would very strongly consider it...

[Rclark]

Yes they'll make sound, even good sound. But not optimal. Low power is not optimal for Maggie's. Tubes or no tubes. And for solid for state try something from this decade.

[medium jim]

Yes they'll make sound, even good sound. But not optimal. Low power is not optimal for Maggie's. Tubes or no tubes. And for solid for state try something from this decade.

And the expert has spoken, must take his advice, period. After all, he has the experience!

Jim

[jarcher]

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-vtl-compact-100-monoblocks-2013-01-13-amplifiers-96768-makawao-hi

No affiliation.

Got to say, every time I see that ad, just seems so tempting.  Monoblocks from VTL w/ that kind of power for that little?  Shipping from Hawaii might be pricey, but still a good deal.  Also the Conrad Johnson MV75-1 he's also selling seems like a good deal.  I'm currently considering one myself for about this price range.  A great sounding tube amp with plenty of guts - which I'm actually thinking of using occasionally with some Magnepan 1.7's. 

Will report back if the CJ has enough power for the 1.7's, but initially I've got to say I don't understand this prevailing wisdom that Magnepans NEED a lot of power to sound good. Particularly the MMG's.  I've often been of the school that "more is better", but lately more of the "enough is enough", when it comes to power.

The MG's are a 4 ohm load, but a fairly flat 4 ohm load.  They don't have the steep peaks & dips like other speakers that prove to be more challenging. And how loud & how much dynamic headroom does one reasonably need?  So as for how much power is enough - that seems subjective to some degree......

As for the other sonic merits that tube power bring vs SS, that's another personal & subjective matter, and may make enough of a difference that you're willing to trade off the potential advantage of a mega-powered SS amp......

Ultimately I think the only way the OP or anyone else will know is to try it out.  If he can't get someone to loan or demo him a decent tube amp to try at home - perhaps he can take his MMG's to a store that carries an interesting tube amp.  That's one of the nice thing about the MMG's - they are so light & relative portable.  Otherwise at his budget, buying used one of the options raised at the right price to allow re-sale at little to no loss if necessary....

[SteveFord]

I can't tell from that photo of the VTLs if they have individual bias pots or not but I can't imagine David Manley designing one that didn't have them.  I guess you'd have to ask the seller.
Any of the larger models would be out of the OP's price range unless you really luck out.
I haven't heard this particular model but if it has that "VTL house sound" they'd be keepers.  Mine have 6550/KT88s so I'm sure that they sound different than the 100W models but Mr. Manley had a really good ear.
I've had pretty high powered SS amps for decades but there was always something that sounded wrong with the system(s).
It was the speakers, it was the preamp, it was the turntable, it was the CD player, it was the cables, it was...the amplifier?
I finally decided to break down and buy some big VTLs and my regret was not having done so decades earlier. 
There's something that's just so addictive about the sound quality that's really difficult to put into words.  The SS amps would match them for volume but they just didn't have that 3D quality to them which the VTLs do.
Let me put it this way: if you find yourself getting bored with your favorite recordings and you eventually wander off to go do something else you want some big tube amps.
Then you will find yourself rooted to the spot, just as you would at a great live concert.

Is it Rollo who has an Audio Research 60 for sale?  That's what I understand they developed the Tympanis with.  That might be a good choice.   
P.S.
It's kind of a toss up whether you go for the 1.7s or the amp(s) first.  I've used big VTLs with MMGs and they sounded pretty good but not as good as they do with 1.7s.