[AluminatiSound]

Really, you don't know why?  Using someone else's $65k machine, free tooling, electric and building doesn't help keep the cost down?   

I do know why!!!

Those cases would take 2 hours to make. My shop charges OUR customers $65 an hour to machine. The aluminum is worth around $150 for both of those cases. Tooling is around $100.

So add that up and you get $380. We'll round it up to $500.

So where do you get the $10,000 from. The amp modules are no more than $2,000 for the pair direct cost from Hypex.

They should be charging $4,000-$6,000 for a pair.

I am using my tools that i paid for, purchased my own material and paid my boss $200 to do this project.

Matt

[jtwrace]

I do know why!!!

Those cases would take 2 hours to make. My shop charges OUR customers $65 an hour to machine. The aluminum is worth around $150 for both of those cases. Tooling is around $100.

So add that up and you get $380. We'll round it up to $500.

So where do you get the $10,000 from. The amp modules are no more than $2,000 for the pair direct cost from Hypex.

They should be charging $4,000-$6,000 for a pair.

I am using my tools that i paid for, purchased my own material and paid my boss $200 to do this project.

Matt

Right.  So your design time and one off prototypes are all free and included in this?  Maybe I'll send all of our work to you and shut down our shop. 

[AluminatiSound]

Right.  So your design time and one off prototypes are all free and included in this?  Maybe I'll send all of our work to you and shut down our shop.

Design time is around 8 hours for my cases. Still not in the realm of 10k+

Serious inflation!!!

Matt

I just don't like greediness of hi end audio.....

I'm done.

[jtwrace]

Design time is around 8 hours for my cases. Still not in the realm of 10k+

Serious inflation!!!

Matt

I just don't like greediness of hi end audio.....

I'm done.

Please PM your shops info so I can have them quote some jobs.   

[AluminatiSound]

Please PM your shops info so I can have them quote some jobs.   

We are very busy and can't take anymore jobs 

But seriously i do not want to fight about this.

Just think some things are way way overpriced for what they really are.

Don't you agree?

Matt

[cab]

If you choose to believe the designer, there should be no material difference in the sound between the two modules, with the nc400 having slightly better specs. There have been no serious tests that I have heard of comparing the two. All comparisons have been ancdotal to date. Jury is still out.
One can assemble an entire 2 channel amp using the nc400's for less than $2000. Doubtful the nc1200 with power supply costs more than double the nc400. No doubt there is a substantial markup on the commercial products. I have heard rumors to the effect that Hypex has asked commercial sellers to charge no less than $9000 for a pair of the nc1200's. This is just a rumor, but with all commerical offerings to date at that price point (Merrill was $9000 when they came out and have since raised their price to $12,000) perhaps there is something to it. If it isn't true, then at some point we should certainly see a much cheaper nc1200 amp on the market, in a plain case, aimed at those interested primarily in performance.

[medium jim]

Disagree with the moderator and get binned, got to love it!

Jim

[Rclark]

Yeah Cab, and that's pretty much the coolest part, the fact that these amps get thrown in the ring with way, way expensive stuff, essentially the highest of high end, and come out roses.

It's just the start, imagine the prices and technology in 5 years.

[medium jim]

Design time is around 8 hours for my cases. Still not in the realm of 10k+

Serious inflation!!!

Matt

I just don't like greediness of hi end audio.....

I'm done.

+1  But you really don't need to let it get to you and give up!

Jim

[farquad]

We are very busy and can't take anymore jobs 

But seriously i do not want to fight about this.

Just think some things are way way overpriced for what they really are.

Don't you agree?

Matt

Everything hifi is overpriced. Especially the hiend hifi.
Reason for this is the small market. They dont sell many of these. So the development and marketing cost per unit sold gets really high.

Question is if its competitive priced compared to similar products.
Also when it comes to hifi, a high pricetag can give the illusion of being more exclusive.

[James Romeyn]

Disregard this if you find it irrelevant.

I regularly visit TJ Max for coffee deals...found some great stuff I love, $5 for 12 oz. 

I'm in line last night staring at all the crap in front of me.  There is 7 oz of flavored popcorn for $15.  I think this proves there are many other markets (in practically every area of consumer item) with products overpriced to the same degree as the worst examples in high end audio. 

Two dollars per oz for popcorn is insane unless it's dipped in gold (then it's under-priced).

If I drive up there again soon I'll take a picture of it.  I could not believe the price, had to stare at it for several seconds.   

[James Romeyn]

Does anyone know (or have a good idea) of what Hypex charges OEMs for the 1200s?   Are they allowed to dictate the OEM minimum price?

I know personally a fairly successful designer/manufacturer who sampled Bruno's 1200.  He said he was unimpressed and preferred his current ICE Power based mono blocs selling for only (about) $2500/pr.  (BTW, I find this very hard to believe because I disliked the Bel Canto ICE amp I heard.) 

Anyway, he said indeed yes, Hypex dictates minimum msrp, which IIRC was about $9k/pr. 

[Julf]

Well this has nothing to do on the effect of micro vibrations on the reproduction of high fidelity sound of music in a transparent stereo system for the home. It only relates to will they work as expected/designed under those conditions.

Absolutely, but I would assume the underlying physical effects are the same.

I have been told  (by more then one authority) of the engineering/physics behind it and understood it but I would not be able to do it justice. I promise nothing but if I can found anything I will post it here when I have the chance.

That would definitely be appreciated!

But in the mean time let me ask you. Do you trust your own ears?

No, I don't. Or, rather, I don't trust my own brain in interpreting the signals from my ears. Have seen far too many examples of how easily our expectations, visual stimuli, time of day, phase of moon and length of to-do list affects how my ear-brain combination "hears" things. As a result, I have become a very firm believer in blind ABX listening, and objective verification (not just in audio).

The problem with something like the Stillpoints is that to properly ABX them, you need two identical systems, and a very good A/B switcher. Easier to do for source components, much harder for a power amp where you have to switch loudpeaker-level signals. And with my active 4-way system, it becomes practically impossible. But in ABX tests with other, lesser semiconductor gear, I have not been able to tell any difference when using "vibration dampening" products. Valve gear, and stuff with moving components (CD drives) are another matter.

I tried this with a friend who felt it was a wast of time. We tried it under his DAC, Amps, Speakers and Distribution Box. It made an Audible improvement under each one. It was like distortion that was in the system was removed each time. No change in tone just distortion removed.

And it was under double-blind conditions?

Well MILLIONS of Apple users are FanBoys and they never knew Steve Jobs should they be suspect.

Yes?

in this country you are not guilty by association

Tell that to the FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, IRS and DEA...

[AJinFLA]

Everything hifi is overpriced. Especially the hiend hifi.

I disagree. This may conflict with the strawman caricature view of me (or ilk) by audiophile snobs, but unlike them, I fully understand the implications of the studies about perception that I have posted previously. The "overpriced" item actually does "sound" (or taste, etc.) better when "listening", to the perceptions of that user/buyer. It is as real in their mind as if it were in the soundwaves/soundfield (which it isn't). And thus, they are getting their moneys worth. Just like with expensive wine, coffee, popcorn, jewelry, whatnot. Beauty truly is in the eye (and ear) of the beholder.
And as I stated a thousand times, none of us listen controlled/blind at home.
So I have no issue with the person who uses a $200 Pioneer receiver, $700 Emotiva or a $200,000 Blingamp. All may create the exact same soundfield, but be perceived subjectively very differently to different minds.
Actually, the only time there is an issue or conflict with audiophile belief vs physical reality, is when they insist that their unerring perception is in fact, always the physical reality of the soundwaves/soundfield. It isn't.
I'm as comfortable with $200 worth of Pioneer, as I am with $12k worth of Cary, Belles, etc., in my system, as I've had, because all that matters is my perception of them and whether it pleases me (all do).
As such, I'm getting my moneys worth out of each one. I'm sure the Mola Mola buyer is too.

cheers,

AJ

[bummrush]

I hate ice amps too. What blew me away was the ridiculous bass. It was boom boom, way over blown and frankly very unrealistic , but it seems rolls flock to that thinking its realistic.
And yes hi end can be a very very greedy and marketing thrown in to make you think you're getting a good deal while they laugh all way to the bank 12000 for a pair of amps while DIY can be had for 2000 it's pretty obvious whats going on.

[rollo]

I know personally a fairly successful designer/manufacturer who sampled Bruno's 1200.  He said he was unimpressed and preferred his current mono blocs selling for only (about) $2500/pr.  (BTW, I find this very hard to believe because I disliked the Bel Canto ICE amp I heard.) 

Anyway, he said indeed yes, Hypex dictates minimum msrp, which IIRC was about $9k/pr.

   James do we know this as fact ? Meaning the minimum dictated selling price. Someday I will get to hear the N-cores compared to my Arion amps. The Merrill version should be in house next week. If it happens I will report back.
   

charles

[Letitroll98]

   James do we know this as fact ? Meaning the minimum dictated selling price. Someday I will get to hear the N-cores compared to my Arion amps. The Merrill version should be in house next week. If it happens I will report back.
   

charles

Yes it true, and I was incorrect in my earlier statement that they couldn't set MSRP by restricting distribution to OEM manufacturers.  Previous to 2008 I was correct, but now the Supreme Court has overturned a previous ruling:

"In a sharply divided 5-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court has overruled its own 1911 decision in the Dr. Miles case and held that a manufacturer does not necessarily violate the antitrust laws by establishing a minimum resale price for its products and enforcing the policy by terminating a wholesaler-distributor or other reseller who sells below the minimum price. (Leegin Creative Products, Inc. v. PSKS, Inc. d/b/a Kay’s Kloset…Kay’s Shoes, Docket No. 06-480)

The Court ruled that “vertical agreements establishing minimum resale prices can have either procompetitive or anticompetitive effects, depending upon the circumstances in which they are formed.” Thus, these agreements should no longer be per se (or automatically) unlawful, as previously ruled in the Dr. Miles case. Rather, courts should apply the “rule of reason” standard to decide, on a case-by-case basis, whether a particular vertical price restraint violates federal antitrust law. It should be emphasized that the Court’s decision still leaves vertical minimum resale price restraints open to antitrust challenge under federal and state antitrust laws."
http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=532

What that means is every price fixing case will be decided individually on it's own merits according to the "rule of reason".  IMHO an incredibly short sighted and foolish decision by a court I have very little confidence in lately.  I understand throwing something back to the lower courts to rule on, but this ruling puts an unnecessary burden on the system inviting a plethora of conflicting lawsuits and decisions.  Not the first time this court has ruled in this style, shirking responsibility and doing nothing except lining the pockets of attorneys everywhere.   

[Julf]

And that of course only applies in the US...

[medium jim]

And that of course only applies in the US...

Hypex holds the cards and if you don't play by their rules, they won't sell you the modules...

Jim

[Rclark]

There's some profit built into the 1200 model, but it looks worth it, and I have to be honest, if I had a lot more money to spend, more money than time, then after what I've experienced with 400 modules, I wouldn't hesitate to get some Mola Mola's. If money was no object Ncores would still be up at the top of my list, definitely. Actually, no, if money was no object I'd just pay Mr. Putzeys to craft me a personal set.

The fact that the internal hardware, the basic amp module itself is but a fraction of the cost of what it gets compared to is the coolest part. Both the Hennessey Viper and the Ariel Atom V8 of amps.